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Now here is a responsible religious figure to represent the australian muslim population!
Douchebag!
Thnakfully some decent people still exist!
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Misinterpreted??? Come on SM, that is pretty watered down, it must be hard trying to find DECENT folks among them!
Someone should show him the REAL Australia and take him trolling for crocs.
The guy apologizing to the Australians and toeing the standard line of ‘misinterpretation’ is rather lame. Come on, you have to face up to your demons or be counted as one of ‘them’.
The major crisis facing the Islamic world today is their leadership or the lack of it.
Is he saying he’s descended from aboriginees,that aboriginees were muslim,or both?
“Australia is no longer Anglo-Saxon. We’ve been in Australia longer than them. Islam is deep rooted in the Australian soil. Islam was here before the English fleet.”
Um…THIS is what you call a “decent” person? An apologist for a complete jackass? An apologist?
I realized Egypt is in a pretty sad state, but I would think that you’re one Egyptian who could tell the difference between what’s decent and what’s bullshit.
When I know that something stupid is gonna come out of my mouth I shut up, maybe this guy should’ve done the same. Although I’ve never been to Australia I’ve seen it from the camera of the best croc hunter Steve Irwin… I guess this country’s stocks are just gonna go up 🙂 http://www.trendio.com/word.php?wordid=888&language=en
“..put it behind him and there were a couple of slip-ups.”
Does this guy also work for Mel and Kramer?
“Australia is no longer Anglo-Saxon. We’ve been in Australia longer than them. Islam is deep rooted in the Australian soil. Islam was here before the English fleet.”
Proof that in ‘Islamistan’; good is evil, bad is good, up is down, black is white, pro is anti, denial is truth, apples are oranges…
You know, it’s guys like Hilaly and the guy apologizing for him who are making sites like Jihadwatch.com so popular and muslims so unpopular.
To Hilali and his ilk – Keep it up.
Keep hating and harping and screaming nonsense.
More and more, Islam’s stock will fall.
Soon people will spit on the green flag of Islam like they do the Red flag of the Third Reich.
And Mecca will be no more.
I would bet that the majority of muslims in Australia agree with him. They may not say it in public, but they agree. It’s time to start thinking about a divorce, because I don’t see any way this is going to work out.
Maybe some hard-line descedant of Australian convicts will have a momentary “slip-up” and put a large caliber bullet through Hillaly’s skull. But then we should “understand the context” and not misinterpret the act. shouldn’t we?
Are we sure Hilali isn’t just doing his Egyptian tour of his “I hate Australians” comedy tour? There can’t be any other excuse for the rubbish that is coming out of his mouth.
Sorry to tell you SM but the “decent” bloke you refer to comes out everytime Hilali says something stupid to say he was misinterpreted, misunderstood or taken out of context. This can happen once or twice but it can’t be everytime Hilali opens his trap.
Australian Muslims need to remove Hilali as he is pulling them out with him. Be it right or wrong his statements come to represent the opinions of Australian Muslims towards their fellow Australian; also he is preaching hatred against non Muslim Australians.
All Australians would be better off without Hilali spreading his poison into the Australian community. It poisons both the Muslims who believe they are victimised and the non-Muslims who want an excuse to hate.
““We (Muslims) came as free people. We bought our own tickets. We are entitled to Australia more than they are,” he said.”
I must admit that he has a great sense of humour 🙂 He should have a sketch in Monty Python or so.
Our Prime Minister has the right idea when Hilali tries to insult non Muslim Australians:
“Speaking in Arabic on Egyptian television Sheik Alhilali said, according to a Seven Network translation, that white Australians arrived in the country shackled as convicts. “We (Muslims) came as free people. We bought our own tickets. We are entitled to Australia more than they are,” he said…
Mr Howard laughed off the spiritual leader’s convict comments.
“I think it will bring a wry smile to the face of Australians who don’t actually feel the least bit offended that many of our ancestors came here as convicts,” Mr Howard told reporters in Sydney.
“It’s almost a badge of honour for many Australians.”
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=156925
I think the guy who you call decent is just as bad as Hillaly, if not worse. There will always be extremists like Hillaly who say garbage. The fact that he has followers is what is more frightening.
There should be more people like the “Islamic Friendship Association of Australia” who apologized for Hilali’s comments. Even if Hiali was taken out of context and his hatred exaggerated, its a matter of PR for the muslim community in Austrailia to show other Australians that they’re friendly to them and don’t think they’re immoral.
Muslim Imams should, as Jewish rabbis & community leaders do, make friendships and bonds in countries where they aren’t the majority. That’s how you advance your people. Hilali only makes life harder for the average Muslim Australian (not to mention fuels the hate of minority radials all over).
I happy to see a link to a decent guy in response to our esteemed Mr. Hillaly, but then I saw it was Keysar Trad. Seems like he’s the one always coming out to cover for this guy, & it’s always the “he’s been misinterpreted, taken out of context” argument.
Here are some truly decent Australian Muslims:
Kuranda Seyit, executive director of the Forum on Australia’s Islamic Relations (FAIR), said the comments were the sheik’s extreme personal opinions and did not represent the views of the majority of the Muslim community.
“We are all Australian and we should all respect and support one another as Australians.”
Mr Seyit said he was saddened the mufti had made more divisive comments and suggested the Lebanese community consider “sending him out to an early pasture”.
“We are all just shell-shocked. Muslims just want to get along and be a part of the nation, not as outsiders whom others only see with disdain,” he said.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=176446
Now this is the type of Australian Muslim that I enjoy hearing from. It is just a shame that I only get to hear from this group when they have to counter to poisonous effect of those like Hilali.
Imad,
its a matter of PR for the muslim community in Austrailia to show other Australians that they’re friendly to them and don’t think they’re immoral.
Immoral? If that was all he said, there wouldn’t be a problem, Imad! He made blatantly racists statements, to the point where a pretty good argument could be made that he is trying to incite violence! An apology on the grounds that he said something so tame as “aussies are immoral” is worse than no apology at all, in my opinion.
Muslim Imams should, as Jewish rabbis & community leaders do, make friendships and bonds in countries where they aren’t the majority.
Jewish communities don’t actually do that, in my experience. They are pretty insular and don’t bring up religious issues in public. Maybe Muslims would be well served by following that example, especially if the “religious issue” amounts to a statement that non-Muslim women deserve to be raped, eh? People get killed over saying things like that.
Don’t be fooled SM
Keysar Trad’s half arsed comment dressed up to look like an apology is bullshit. That man consistently uses the defence of “take his comments in context”. Trad is well known down under for some pretty stupid comments himself.
I am sick to death of Hilaly, Trad and Omran (Melbourne based cleric)- the three of them should piss off and leave us alone. And as for the constant media hype about Hilaly representing all Australian Muslims- for the last time- Hilali does NOT, I repeat NOT represent us- He was not elected to speak for anybody. If the Sydney Lebs want to put him on a pedestal- that’s their fucking issue- let them fucking deal with it- Sydney Lebs do not represenent all Aussie Muslims.
There are at least another 200 000 Muslims here who have never heard of Hilali, who do not know or listen to him and who wish he would just crawl back under the rock he came from.
If the Sydney Lebs love him so much- let Lebanon keep him!!!! If Egypt fucking loves him so much- let Egypt keep him- but you’d better keep the prick away from me when I visit Egypt because I seriously may not be able to control myself!
Don’t let him back in Australia!
Oh and in case you didn’t notice
I’m damn angry and I’m not going to take it any more.
I’m starting a petition for all Muslims to denounce Hilali and his stupid arse comments (ofcourse I won’t use the words stupid arse on the petition- pissfarty maybe but stupid arse is just not technical enough).
Any Aussie Muslims out there who are willing to support- let me know- in the meantime, I’m drafting it and sending it out to over 100 of my Muslim contacts here and asking them to forward it on. I work in Government so I’ll send it on to my Minister and to my colleagues in Parliament. I also work in journalism so I’lll cc it to my colleagues in the media.
If we sit by and do nothing we will are complicit.
Forget Trad
Read this:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Muslims-distance-themselves-from-mufti/2007/01/12/1168105151229.html
I’m personally somewhat sceptical about the media, how they have represented comments, etc; they have a tendency to senstaionalise and trivialise information to sell papers. So i’m not too sure about this one. i only say this because i saw a channel 9 interview with halil, about the ‘meat’ comments; my impression was that he was merely metaphorically refering to meat in the sense that it can be perceive dangerous for woman to dress scantily, in the wrong place at the wrong time; which is true enough. I dont think he literally meant to describe woman as peices of meat; it was a metaphor; a techique common to holy books, and thus appropriate in the context it was used as a mufti preaching. I’m not condoning the comment but neither ajm I ready to believe everything and anything the media report. furthermore, meaning gets lost in translation; especially from an archaic langiuage like arabic.
whatever the case, this guys needs some serious advice on PR if he doesnt want some nut knocking on his door with a gun and blowing his brains out!
Sorry this is long but this is a paper by the guy who was defending sheik
________________________
In her maiden speech in parliament, Pauline Hanson revealed the egoist nature of Western society. Her stance was supported by Graham Campbell, who is notorious for his anti-Islam view. We look at the nature of Australian society, and compare it within the context of Islam.
Part 1: ELITISM
He said: I am better than him, You created me from fire, and created him from clay.” [S7:V12]
So was the first reported case of elitism, and the promise, that through the same trap, Satan would attempt to beguile humanity.
The second reported case was the competition between Cain and Able, that bout of elitism ended in the elitist killing the humble of the two. (refer 5: 27-31)
Ever since, man has been trying to prove that he is better than the next, except for those saved by Allah.
What brings one to write about elitism? Is it indeed the threat faced by the society we live in when a member of this society abuses her position of honour, and stirs these feelings of elitism? You know, the case between Adam and Satan was one being exclaiming superiority over another, the case with Cain and Able was that of one person not being able to bear the superiority of another when this was proven to him, so he killed him.
Today, the elitist builds a cult, to rally support, and then looks for what it considers the weakest in its society, and rallies its cult to prey on this weak section of its society. It can go on a larger scale, if it is intelligent, and make all in its society members of its cult, and prey on neighbouring societies.
I cannot resist the Hitler parallel, wanting to destroy every person who did not fit into the particular mould he had in mind, and today’s fame-starved individuals who have an image, and appear to believe that fitting to that image holds the salvation for the society they live in.
So Pauline Hanson talks about the big picture, without looking at it; she looks at the threat from the position of a desperate coward, not realising the opportunities which a little tact, a little research, and the realisation of just how powerful one is, would generate for the improvement of her society.
Then we have Graeme Campbell, who went a step further and actually named Muslims as being undesirable immigrants because Islamic fundamentalism is so alien to western culture.
He was sufficiently brave to actually come out and say this, yet, from the Muslim viewpoint, our ideology is the best salvation for the people of Australia, and the people of the world in general. Yes, we are a threat to the culture of drunkenness, paedophilia, and mostly we are a big threat to the culture of ELITISM.
To us, the most honourable is the most pious, and we are not in the position to judge this piety, so we as Muslims, are fundamentally opposed to the notion of elitism. We encourage the principle that we are all to Adam, and Adam was created from earth.
The noise generated by so many, and the mass support that these elitist individuals seem to rally is incredible to say the least. It would be easier to understand this mentality in Rwanda, or in some South American countries, or any third world country where Islam is a minority. But in Australia, it is extremely perturbing.
So how is this elitism countered? It seems that the reaction only came when the bank balance started to suffer, when condemnation came from the president of the Olympic body, from our foreign customers, from people who can influence our own personal benefits. They were not criticised because their views are evil, not because they are destructive, but because they would reflect badly on us.
How many from our own community reacted on the basis that Pauline is threatening our own personal lifestyles? How many of us were angered for Allah alone, rather than self interest? If we are angered because of self interest, then we are no different to her, we should sign up as fellow elitists.
How far removed are these elitist notions from our Messenger (peace and blessings upon him), he used to look for these disadvantaged groups and be the first to offer assistance, and encouraged his companions and all Muslims to offer assistance to them.
Traditionally, the Muslim notion and reaction is to welcome a disadvantaged person, and serve upon them, and offer every assistance which we are capable of. This indeed is diametrically opposed to the elitist views which are touted by so many in this community.
Let them go back to their own country! They stuffed it up there, let them solve their own problems! We do not want their problems in our country! When in Rome, do as the Romans do! They do not assimilate! Assimilation is now the most vile word to my hearing because it has been so abused by these people.
It is astounding how, when Pauline started the assimilation argument that the media found a Muslim woman wearing the Hijab, slightly overweight, doing her shopping, and channel nine would show her in an advertisement for one of their shows, right after the assimilation comment. They do not film a fat Australian woman in tight bicycle shorts, or tight pants, or an Australian drunk, or a nun, or an Australian welfare cheat. NO!!! They show a Muslim woman wearing a Hijab, she is not assimilating, it would be okay if this same woman walked around in bicycle shorts, with her body vulgarly bulging out to the point of regurgitation.
These people are whacked, they have not got a clue! Unfortunately, there are too many of them to be described as a minority. Perhaps they are the vocal section of a wider group, because it seems that the Liberal and Labour governments have tacitly approved and employed a form of discrimination in their policies before this fiasco.
One just needs to look at the points system, and how these favour European migrants. Or the government services, or the way non – Westerners are treated by many in our community.
However, the politically correct discrimination practised by other Parliamentarians was different. Whilst it was there, and enforced, the little man, who had become accustomed to so much being given to him, did not really understand it, it was too subtle, and too well exercised, you had to be astute to discover it.
Pauline Hanson was the panacea for this little man who needed it spelled out. Her words, although they did not call for action against migrants who are already in this country, gave this little man the license to vet out his frustrations on these migrants. Instead of guarding the borders of the country against the illegal entrants into Australia, he wanted to reverse the migration, and make life intolerable for the migrants already here, and send them back. He does not care about their contribution to society. He did not understand why the other parliamentarians were discreet about voicing these views.
The unwillingness of the other parliamentarians to give more than the least lip service to these views just shows that these people tacitly support such views. Elitism is rife in our politics, the classic example is the report in the paper of a couple of parliamentarians wanting to gag a Greens senator for not wearing his tie, and the report named one of these as one of the people speaking out against Pauline. It is just a struggle to grab anything which will boost their egos, to justify their elitism. Simultaneously blinded to any fact which would breed understanding.
So the little man feels braver now, and is able to justify taunting our sisters when they walk in the streets as he passes them in his car. Or to taunt me because I look non Western. He is justified, because Pauline has inadvertently convinced him that such actions are the solution to the problems of this country and he is the white knight in his shining armour, with the blue Australian Blood (or should I say: the beer Australian blood) who must come to the rescue.
As these people are responding to the suggestions of Satan, unhesitantly, and the basic suggestion, the very one which fell him from grace, the “I am better than he” principle, they are heading to the same fate.
And how many a community passed away before them, which are now destroyed: “And how many a township have We destroyed while it was sinful, so that it lies in ruins, and a deserted well, and lofty tower! Have they not traveled in the land, and have they hearts wherewith to feel and ears wherewith to hear? For indeed it is not the eyes that grow blind, but it is the hearts, which are within the bosoms, that grow blind.”
[S22:V45-46]
“See they not how many generation We destroyed before them, whom We had established in the earth more firmly that We have established you, and We shed on them abundant showers from the sky, and made the rivers flow beneath them. Yet We destroyed them for their sins and created after them another generation.” [S6:V6]
“And We have indeed written in the Zabour after the Zikr, that the Earth will be inherited by my servants who are righteous.” [S21:V105]
In a way, they feel safe because of the quantity of water which surrounds this country, so they feel fortified behind this great body, it gives them a feeling of security. But the reality is, the land belongs to God, not to them, and if those foreigners, whom they fear as migrants are not permitted to enter as migrants, they will come as settlers, in numbers so large that they will not be able to process them, hold them, or stop them. What will they do then? If these foreigners who are restraining themselves, because they see a legal hope, that they can come to this vast mainly uninhabited land for whatever reason, are told that there is no longer a legal way to come here, what will they do?
What will a starving person do when he wants food?
They will no longer respect these laws which were drafted in a cocoon away from the reality that the land of Australia does not belong to white European man. In fact, if the original inhabitants had their way, or if we want to employ Pauline Hanson justice, then white man should pack his bags and leave this country, for your people Pauline, have been the worst of guests!
The criminal dregs of white society colonised this country, and now, they only take the select choice of other societies, and the descendants of these criminal dregs tell us that they are better than us. And because we are not elitists, we tolerate them. Yet they want us to assimilate, perhaps they will only become satisfied when we each die our hair red, wear blue/green contact lenses, and operate a fish and chips shop, otherwise, we would not be truly assimilating, would we?
“As for those whose souls the angels took while still they were wronging themselves – the angels said, “in what were you engaged?” They said, “We were weak in the land.” They said: “was not Allah’s earth spacious, so that you might have emigrated in it?” So for those, their abode is hell, and it is a bad destination.” [S4:V97]
So it is a duty for the oppressed to seek out a land where he can practice his faith without persecution, rather than join the rot.
Of course, Australia has to feature prominently in this treatise, for no reason other than the fact that I live here.
A study of other western countries will show the situation to be worse. In America for example, the situation with elitism sees the neighbouring Mexicans whose Texas was usurped from them by the Yanks being treated like unwanted feral animals, they are refused any basic human rights, and reports have been filed of their numbers being bashed and humiliated by border patrols. The US policies are more far reaching, it seems that as their power of communication, and weapon potential grows, they expand their influence and interference in the domestic affairs of foreign nations. So we see subversive activities in practically all South American countries to keep them unstable so that they can never pose a threat to the myth of the great free America.
If we look further, we see their interference in the affairs of Islamic countries which are on the other side of the globe, we see them shape the politics of Egypt, Saudi, Kuwait and many other countries, and we see them suppressing the revival of Islam there.
Canada is an example of irony, a country divided into two official languages seeing the French side banning shop signs in languages other than French.
Yet the French appear to be the most intolerant going to the extent of banning the importation of basic Islamic books into their country, including simple books such as Dr Yusuf Al-Qaradawy’s “The Lawful and the Prohibited in Islam”, and banning Muslim women from attending high schools and universities if their head is covered with a scarf. To the point of having police there to stop these sisters from entering university grounds.
The British are no better, their incestuous relationship and influence over Arab countries saw them debating the introduction of a new law to deport Muslims on suspicion of so called “fundamentalist” links without a trial. Not to mention their support of the Serbs in the Balkan conflict through opposing arms sale to the Bosnian Muslims.
The Germans are not free from blame either, apart from their open support to the Croatians in the Balkan conflict, Turkish Muslims have been hunted by youth gangs in Germany as well as having a number of Muslim homes burnt at the hands of these gangs.
The Communists in particular have practised their elitism against all religion and Islam in particular, turning mosques into factories, and deporting entire Muslim communities such as the mass deportation of 3 million Chechens at the end of WW2 by Stalin where one million died on the way, and their brutal invasion of Chechnya and their inhuman treatment of Muslims there.
The Chinese are also actively practicing their form of elitism on minorities in their country and abroad with persecutions of Muslims, and the entering into treaties with Russia and other countries to counter the growing threat of the “Islamic Menace”.
There are other examples in Africa, Rwanda Hootoos and Tutsies, and in Palestine, where Palestinian Muslims in particular have no rights whatsoever, to the extent that the murder of a Palestinian earns the Israeli murderer a penalty of one third of a cent and a suspended prison sentence. They have an excuse though, they are “God’s chosen people” – what they do not realise is that they have been chosen as fuel for His fire, but they will keep this murder going until we stop them with the help of Allah.
India, the Asian country which is dominated by the lowest of the low amongst racists, the class society which divides its own people into four classes and places people of other faiths, and Muslims in particular as the lowest of the low. The policies of these cow worshippers, and their extermination of Muslims in their countries and inside Kashmir (to the silence of Western countries) is one more example of how this feeling of elitism is not restricted to the colour of the elitist, it is a lifestyle of those idiots who have intoxicated themselves with a false feeling of power, and who actively exercise this power against others.
What it boils down to is that elitism is practised to the detriment of others in many Western countries, as well as would be Western countries, on various scales. It seems that a common victim of this elitism with all these countries is the Muslim; this is evident through both government policies and the way their media reports negatively on Islam.
The joke is on the elitists and the Muslims who stand idly by letting all this take place without exercising the power given to us by Islam. “And if you turn away, He will exchange a people other than you, then they will not be like you.” [S47: V38]
By Br. Keysar Trad
This article was first published in the 16th issue of Nida’ul Islam magazine (http://www.islam.org.au),
December – January 1996-97]
This shifty sheik is in Egypt now and is hooking up with the Brotherhood, tell me can you leave the Muslim brotherhood and live??? I don’t think so….. could some one in Egypt please go to the News paper Archives and dig up old story’s about Mufti, you know he was Jailed in Egypt don’t you? well he said Egyptians where framing him they are lyres they are spies trying to set him up, just like he says about us, this is like the fcuking Twilight zone…………..HELPPPPPPPP He has other names as well one for each country so it seams…..I will look them up and post them later.
‘Don’t bother coming back’
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/01/12/1168105153098.html
“It seems that a common victim of this elitism with all these countries is the Muslim; this is evident through both government policies and the way their media reports negatively on Islam.”
Apparently the only group lower, therefore more victimized?, are the black Africans… must explain Darfur tehn eh 😛
Time for the west to start USING our hate speech laws equally instead of just on klansmen and holocaust denying rednecks.
Claiming something was “taken out of context” might work if the statement in question was a bit more nuanced than something typical of an angry 13 yr-old punk. “We rool! N00bz!”
OK, Mufti Donnaletthadoorhityouindaasszonyowayouttahere!
P.S. “Mufti” means he thinks he lives in a sharia state, here Australia. Muftis are sharia judges, not tasty breakfast pasteries or sexy underwear.
So, Goanna, that long post was a paper by Trad?
There are Muslims all over Melbourne from modern and mild (we actually share our home with a Turkish “Muslim” who did not even know that Jesus was a prophet of Islam, he’s so “secular”), to the hard-core, head-to-toe covered Muslims, and undoubtedly every kind of Muslim in-between. We buy our lunch from A Syrian Muslim who hires waitresses who wear normal modern, body-gripping jeans and moderately revealing tops and make-up. He describes himself as a “proud Muslim”. He lives like a modern Australian (and was born here).
There are a fair number of women walking the sidewalks covered from head-to-toe in full Islamic attire. These women usually do not look at you, are aloof and do not acknowledge you, although one young woman in a group did smile at me appreciatively when I was wearing my Christmas hat and other festive decorations. But that’s really rare. I don’t know whether these women have this shunning kind of attitude because they’re afraid people won’t be friendly back, or if it is part of fundamentalist views of how women should behave in public, or if they think the rest of us are so immoral and low that they don’t want to contaminate themselves by looking at us.
I’ve been in Australia for 4 years. There are no more open, friendly, non-elitist people around than Aussies. But if they feel that someone is being uppity, they will, as they say “take the piss out of ’em” by making fun. And if they hear that some group has a desire to convert them, to make women stop wearing modern bathing suits on the beach (as in Cronulla), and if they suspect that certain members of the group may even want to bring Sharia law into the country, they are NOT going to take kindly to that.
And a few idiots, with low self-control and unthinking habits, will not discriminate between reasonable, live-and-let-live Muslims and the ones who seem to be brewing Sharia schemes – they’ll verbally abuse or even physically attack people they think are holding themselves as superior, or who they imagine have designs on taking over their country and imposing their religion on everyone.
Such idiots can exist in any country.
Life among human beings can be complicated. It can be full of misunderstandings even when everyone shares the same cultural basics and language, and it gets even more messy when cultures mix and foreign languages create confusion. Western cultures – perhaps especially Australia, the USA, and Canada – have done pretty well considering how many immigrants they have absorbed over their histories. But you cannot expect the going to be smooth, no matter where the immigrants go. Differences clash, and misunderstandings occur. The more adult, thoughtful people deal with these misunderstandings with calm intelligence and work out the problems. The idiots go off half-cocked and do and say destructive things.
I’ve read plenty about how the laws in many Muslim countries treat the Muslims as though they are superior to everyone else. There is the “Dhimmi” concept, which is abhorrent to anyone who believes everyone should be coercion-free to make their own honest choices about religion and personal lifestyle. A “dhimmi” – as I understand it – is a person living in a Muslim country who is either a Christian or a Jew, and who must pay a special, extra tax in order to be given legal proptection. And they must accept a lower social status than Muslims. As to those who are not a Christian or Jew, they don’t get the protection of the law at all.
Is this true? Because I have read about this from several sources that seem to be well-credentialled in the subject of Islam.
People are suspicious of Muslims such as Hilaly, and his apologist, Trad, because of what we’ve been reading and hearing about the ambitions of certain fanatic Muslim groups in regard to spreading Islam (and their own particular brand of Islam at that) by the “sword”, first in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, and then on to everywhere.
And we read that where Islam is in the minority, Muslims are instructed to lie low, and spread the religion with verbal persuasion, but when Muslims gain the strength of numbers, they’re to use force to bring the Sharia law to the land. This is scary stuff. There are whole books about this.
So when a prominent Muslim makes out that maybe the people who aleady live in a country are less fit to be there than Muslim immigrants… well… what would you think if you were a non-Muslim living in that country? Wouldn’t you have at least an inkling of fear, or at least concern, that that Muslim leader was trying to encourage his people to take steps to Islamize your country? That perhaps he came to your country on that very mission? And if you refuse to even entertain such suspicions, wouldn’t you be sticking you head in the sand?
And when people like Trad make excuses for men like Hilaly (who – in something like 18 years (?) of being in Australia – has not bothered to learn English so that he can explain *himself* to English speakers in his adopted country), it comes across as an attempt to cover up what Hilaly is about – what accounts over several years of Hilaly statments has made Hilaly out to be. And what is that? A man who is trying to radicalise Islam in Australia, while wearing the label “Moderate Muslim”. He’s coming across as being in Australia IN ORDER to radicalize Muslims here -and that is what I strongly suspect of him.
Is the press misrepresenting Hilaly? How would I know? I don’t know the Arabic language, so I can’t read the original speeches as he made them. But if I were planning to live in a primarily Arabic-speaking country, I’d learn the language as fast and accurately as I could, so that I could speak for myself and make sure that I was properly understood. Hilaly hasn’t done that.( I have a Lebanese acquaintance who read the cat-and-meat speech in full and in the original Arabic, and he told me that at least that speech was accurately reported in the newspaper translations.)
USUAL SUSPECT, if you read Arabic and have not read Hilaly’s speeches or listened to the interviews at issue yet, I ask you to please do that before petitoning against Hilaly.
But if you know from reading and listening to him that he is as bad as the media portray, then go for that petition. If the Lebanese community in Sydney want to keep him, let them, but you will do a lot of good for your fellow tolerant Muslims if you can show that lots of Muslims do not agree with Hilaly’s views of Australia and of Islam itself. Show us, and show us loudly and across all the media that you can. And keep it up. People forget a once-off encouraging message, especially if they’re feeling threatened.
In fact, it would be great if – whether Hilaly is referenced or not – live-and-let-live Muslims would state in clear, unequivocal terms, that they recognize every individual’s right to live free from the initiation of physical force, to live non-coercively by whatever beliefs one thinks are true, and to let others live non-coercively by theirs. The law should not play favorites or enforce any religion.
I believe we in Australia (and all over the place) are headed for horribly bigger trouble in the future, and what we need is NOT to gloss over the Muslims who blatantly *suck* , and NOT to slap all Muslims with the same Islamist brush, but to sort this thing out clearly. We need to know just exactly what is what and who is what, so that we can handle this as fairly as is humanly possible.
If we are too happy-go-lucky and forgiving, we’ll wind up getting stomped. But if we’re too fearful and knee-jerky, we’ll throw out babies with bathwater, and really I don’ want that.
I don’t want to be dhimmified, dead, or unjust.
I just want Australia to get it right.
Talluhadarling
I speak Arabic but I don’t read it- and I am Egyptian so I have a pretty good idea of how analogies, puns and plays on words are used in colloquial Egyptian. Make no mistake- the translations were accurate- even in Egyptian colloquial Arabic there can be no mistaking what he said and what he meant.
Craig is right in saying that Muslims need to learn the language of public debate. We need leaders and spokespeople who can engage with the broader community on a common basis and understanding that we are all Australians. Unfortunately, the media loves a fool and they will continue to give voice to people who not only do not know how to use the English language effectively but who also have no understanding of the common currency of debate in liberal democratic societies.
We need people who can talk about issues without a victim mentality. We need people who can present Australian Muslims as Australians and who do not always refer to religion in everything they say- but refer to the common good of the people of Australia.
We need the opposite of Hilali, Trad and Omran.
Goanna
I read the article by Trad- yes it sucks- but Pauline Hanson and Graeme Campell aren’t exactly your everyday run of the mill, fair minded, tolerant, easygoing, fair go for everyone Aussies. They are pollies with political agendas. Hanson’s maiden speech in Parliament is offensive – she refers to Asians as the “yellow peril”- offensive to Australian values and offensive to anyone who holds those values dear. As for Graeme Campell- well I’ve had my battles and debates with him too. These politicians whip up hatred and fear for their own purposes. Having said that, Trad’s response is an excellent example of how NOT to respond. It is just the perfect testimony to how desperately Australian Muslims need someone who is competent and able to address issues in a manner that appeals to the broader community.
[…] And as for the constant media hype about Hilaly representing all Australian Muslims- for the last time- Hilali does NOT, I repeat NOT represent us- He was not elected to speak for anybody. If the Sydney Lebs want to put him on a … – more – […]
People like this dumbass Sheikh are the reason Arabs/Muslims like me are on the defensive every single day… Sometimes I just hate my life…. Nothing more to say..
Don’t take it bad, ramy. It isn’t a reflection on you. Hilaly is a dumb-ass, but everybody knew that all ready.
I’m tired. Already, not all ready.
Ramy
Tommy’s right. We shouldn’t have to be on the defensive. Hilaly doesn’t exactly have a good reputation. If we can get rid of him, all our lives will be much easier.
Don’t let him make you hate your life
Thanks, tommy, unusual suspect.
If only things where that easy. Reality is that Imams like Hilaly are the most vociferous out there and hence attract most attention. If I was an Australian citizen the first thing that would come to mind after listening to this “most prominent Australian Imam”, would be “What the hell is wrong with these people, if you hate my country so much why don’t f*** o** to which ever s*** hole you came from.”
Australians, Euopeans, Americans, or whoevever, you should make it very clear to immigrants coming into your respective countries that they should respect your laws and culture. If they want to live under Islamist laws they’re more than welcome to go back to their home countries.
ramy Says:
January 12th, 2007 at 10:21 am
People like this dumbass Sheikh are the reason Arabs/Muslims like me are on the defensive every single day… Sometimes I just hate my life…. Nothing more to say..
————————————————————————————–
oh don’t be sad heres a hug ok.. feel better , I accept and acknowledge you are a victim of the fall out from The fcuk wits, Like trad and Hilay’s of the world, chin up that’s the way, now wipe away your tears and fears and only care how you feel about your self……..its ok to be you!
I don’t support Pauline Hanson, and I do know the difference between a radical and normal Muslim. I always try and stipulate “Radical” when referring to radicals, I hope that statement is enough for the reader that I am not including all Muslims in my statements.
I can only hope moderate Muslims understand we have a battle not with them, but with Radicals who will take your freedom as well if they can.
I do say that normal Muslims should do more to get rid of the radicals for all our sakes…..
Goanna
you have made my day- really. All too often those of us who are moderates/modernists/ secularists are tarnished by the same brush people use to label jihadis/radicals/Islamists.
Sometimes it’s hard to stay motivated.
Thankyou
20. Craig:
Actually, the jews in Denmark are, for the most part, completely assimilated (in the good sense of the word) into the general population. Heck, some of my jewish friends love pork rine and roast pork!
Of course, this has a lot to do with the fact that their families have lived in Denmark for many, many generations, unlike most muslim families… It seems it’s just a matter of being patient.
As for this Alhilali fellow, his type is not particular for Australia… One of our highest profiled Imams, Abu Laban, has more or less the same view of our society as Alhilali seems to have of the australian ditto. It’s sad, but it seems the psyco’s are always the most verbal. Unfortunately, in the eyes of the media, they are also the most interesting, so they get lots and lots of coverage. Finally, it’s a sad fact that a reputation takes years to build but seconds to tear down. It’ll take a whole busload of moderate muslims to make up for the damage wrought by one individual like Alhilali, and they will have to keep up their efforts for a long time to sway the public opinion.
Goanna,
After reading the Aricle you posted, I couldn’t help but respond,
The writer summed up hatred, racism, religious intolerance, and xenophobia into a single word: elitism. Clearly he doesn’t understand the meaning of the word since neither actually fit the definition of elitism. For the sake of argument i’ll turn a blind eye and take him on it.
The writer says:
“from the Muslim viewpoint, our ideology is the best salvation for the people of Australia, and the people of the world in general. Yes, we are a threat to the culture of drunkenness, paedophilia, and mostly we are a big threat to the culture of ELITISM.”
If this statement doesn’t qualify as “elitism” I wonder what does. Clearly the writer thinks HIS ideology (whatever that is) is superior to any other. The writer also clearly attributes drunkness and paedophilia to western society alone.
he also says:
“Let them go back to their own country (Australian talking about immigrants)! They stuffed it up there, let them solve their own problems! We do not want their problems in our country! When in Rome, do as the Romans do! They do not assimilate! Assimilation is now the most vile word to my hearing because it has been so abused by these people.”
A reasonable person would think that an immigrant looking for a better life in another country would try to fit in or at least respect the culture (which actually lead to the higher standards of living and freedom enjoyed by the locals). But not the writer. He thinks he should actually impose his views and culture on the locals who should be forced to accept it without question and with open arms.
“One just needs to look at the points system, and how these favour European migrants. Or the government services, or the way non – Westerners are treated by many in our community.”
I don’t even want to get started on how locals in many Muslim countries are favoured over immigrants (actually foreign workers is a more appropriate word) from other Muslim countries, not to mention non-muslims offcourse. I’m actually with the writer and totally against descrimination on racial or religious basis but the alternative “Islamic” model the writer present is actually way much worse.
“If these foreigners who are restraining themselves, because they see a legal hope, that they can come to this vast mainly uninhabited land for whatever reason, are told that there is no longer a legal way to come here, what will they do?
What will a starving person do when he wants food?”
I’d seek a better life in my own country, hell maybe even atempt to instate my rediculous ideoloy and see how it competes with western ideology.
“The criminal dregs of white society colonised this country, and now, they only take the select choice of other societies, and the descendants of these criminal dregs tell us that they are better than us.
Who is being “elitist” and racist now?
“And because we are not elitists, we tolerate them. Yet they want us to assimilate, perhaps they will only become satisfied when we each die our hair red, wear blue/green contact lenses, and operate a fish and chips shop, otherwise, we would not be truly assimilating, would we?”
Funny notion that the immigrant’s are tolerating the locals.
Dear Mr. Writer whoever you are:
Racism, Xenophobia and Religious intolerance (“elitism” according to you) is absolutely condemnable in any form and in any society, however you’ve proven way to many times that your “ideology” is far more “elitist” than any of those societies you’ve mentioned. Worse examples of “elitism” are alive in many “Islamic” nations and are justified by the countries Imams. The west is weary of muslims in particular because people like you are stupidly trying to change the culture to fit your intellectually bankrupt radical ideology and since no one is buying you blame them calling them elitists.
The reason you’re able to voice your naive visions of “Islamic Empire”, is because of the freedom of speech waranted to you by the culture of the “descendants of criminal dregs”. If you did this in any “Islamic” country you’d be thrown in jail in a heart beat. How’s that for “elitism”.
If you hate the “elitist” west so much, why don’t you just pack and leave, or maybe you’re expecting them to leave?
I’m not bashing my own kind, however i’m totally enraged by the lack of logic exhibited by morons like this. I’m a proud muslim but I practice my religion at home and in the mosque. Religion is something between a person and whoever(or whatever) he worships. Culture, politics and laws should be seperate.
Just felt like ranting …. sorry 🙂
Usual suspect, I was glad to see your input on this post and even gladder to hear of your plan. PLEASE do it.
Could you write out your blog address again?
Ever notice how Muslims like Hilaly do everything in their power to alienate and disgust normal people and then claim that Muslims are discriminated against and disliked because there’s a normal backlash against this kind of behaviou?
If Muslims kept their jihad in their pants, this wouldn’t be a problem. However, Hilaly and his ilk make it ever that much more difficult for people like my husband (and others on this board) who DO keep their jihad in their pants.
Kinzi
I’m drafting the petition now. Couldn’t do it earlier as I was at work. Will have it up on my blog by tomorrow- http://www.threelives.blogspot.com.
My Mum says she’ll be the first to sign! My Dad says he’ll be the second…
Ramy
Great post. Completely agree with everything you say. Just have one point about assimilation. There is a lot of opposition to using the term assimilation in Australia that goes back to our history. In the early 1900s Australia adopted an official policy of assimilation known as the Immigration Restriction Act (1901) or more commonly as The White Australia policy. Part of the assimilationist policy was aimed at Australia’s indigenous peoples and it was assumed that they could be “bred out” by taking children away from their parents and placing them with ‘white’ families or in foster homes where they would be taught the ‘white man’s way’. The logic was that in four generations they could breed the Aboriginals out of Australia and “maintain Australia for the white man” (literally the words of Edmund Barton, Primeminister at the time). There are generations of Aboriginal people today who were taken from their parents and suffer greatly because of it. Assimilationism in Australia also meant that non-European people, many of whom had lived in Australia for many years and who considered themselves Australians, were repatriated- Chinese, Afghan camel drivers who had married Australian women, Indian traders as well. It also meant that immigration was restricted only to Anglo Saxon Europeans. It was until Britain joined the EU and rescinded favoured migration to Australia, that the White Australia Policy was finally abandoned and Australia opened its doors to non-European migrants. The policy was completely abolished only in the 70’s (that’s only 30 odd years ago). In its place came the ill fated multiculturalism- originally intended as a policy to manage waves of non-European migration.
So, as you can see, the term assimilation is a historically laden term in Australia and associated with a period of our history that many Australians are not proud of. These days we talk about integration and positive participation. The Government has pretty much officially adopted the term integration. Personally I prefer these words as they are also not offensive to the Aboriginal people who suffered greatly under assimilation and they place a sense of responsibility on those who come to our country to contribute in a positive way and make an effort to participate in all facets of Australian life- and a bloody good life it is at that!
Sorry this is soooooo long!
oops that should’ve been http://www.three-lives.blogspot.com
Thanks! I’ll bookmark it this time. Good on your mom and dad! Maybe Sandmonkey and Drima would post it for their readers from Oz…
The Usual Suspect,
Thanks for the info…. I’ve heard about the assimilation of aboriginal Australians before, didn’t know the details though. Great Blog BTW, very informative.
Petition is done- you can see it on my blog.
Will take hard copies around to friends and send out emails tomorrow.
But now… it’s 2am here and I’ve been at work all day and have a boxing and spin class in exactly 8 hours time… so I’m going to sleep.
Goodnight
Best of luck to you on that petition usual suspect, and ramy, don’t feel bad about yourself over the douchebags who are keeping you down. It’s actually quite heartening to see this conversation in response to a-holes such as Hillaly.
Australians, Euopeans, Americans, or whoevever, you should make it very clear to immigrants coming into your respective countries that they should respect your laws and culture.
Ramy
that’s easy to say when some of our PC politicians try to excuse everything what muslims do just because they are muslims. I talked with muslims in my country and I often heard “we are misunderstood” “we are persecuted against” “you are rasist”. Small incidents are blow out of proportion, perhaps because many immigrants think themselves prosecuted against, they were taught that in their own country and it is difficult to change their entire mindset. I know that majority (I hope) muslims want to work, get rich, and live like other immigrants do. They do not want jihad and they do not want to support wahabis. But the later have money, they often help muslim immigrants, their ideology is preached in mosques, and it shows.
Sometimes I just hate my life…. Nothing more to say..
Don’t, life is beautifull. Go for a walk, look at trees and flowers (or white snow). And stop thinking about these idiots.
*hugs* *kisses*
Usual Suspect
Wish you a big success with that petition.
Just for interest, it is probable that the first contact with Australia by Muslims was by traders and fishermen from Indonesian (Macassar) back in the 16th century. Some intermarried with Aboriginal women and there are apparently Macassar graves on the northern shores of Australia. There were also Muslim sailors and Muslim CONVICTS from the British island territories and coastal Africa amongst those who came here in the early fleets of European settlers.
However most Australians associate Muslim arrival in Australia with the camel drivers from Afghanistan.
“ In 1858 the Victorian Exploration Committee requested George Landells, who regularly accompanied exported Australian horses to India, to buy camels and recruit camel drivers on his next visit. He bought twenty-four beasts and hired three drivers, Samla, a Hindu and two Muslims, Esan Khan and Dost Mahomet. They arrived in 1860 and were housed at Parliament House and both beasts and men were kept in stables there.” Islamic Council of Victoria, history.
So the Mufti is right in implying that Muslims were early to visit Australia, as were the Dutch who made first contact in 1606. Maybe they followed the routes of the traders. He seems to have missed out on hearing about the Muslim convicts however.
Early Sydney was a very cosmopolitan place with visitors from all over the world. There is a delightful story about the King of Tonga paying a visit to early Sydney and on his wanders entering a bakery to get food, gratis as was his usual practice in Tonga. Sent off with a flea in his ear the story goes. Kinda how we like to think of ourselves at our best, happy to mix with anyone, no time for those who think that they are entitled and we tell them so. Hilali certainly is one who thinks he is one of the elite and entitled to tell us how we should live, or else.
There have been Muslim Australian for a long time, Australia’s first mosque was built at Marree in northern South Australia in 1861 and a large mosque was built in Adelaide in 1890. The Anglo (presumably code for Christians and Jews, and aetheists?) and Muslim Australians have in the main got along fine, and on the whole still do. Hilali and his grubby mates should be ignored, other than he is elected? Mufti of Australia, and as such a major influence for some.
Though we don’t like him wonder if Egypt might not like him back however. I note that his interviewer on Egyptian TV had a go at him for declaring our legal system corrupt for goaling a man for forcing (“carried out his matrimonial right..without her consent” urk) his wife.
Adib: “I am for it.A man who rapes his wife would be a bad man. Rape is rape, and she was forced.”
Keysar Trad, my view, con man. Seems to have appointed himself spokesman for a number of organisations over time. Just can’t get enough publicity can Trad.
>I know that majority (I hope) muslims want to work, get rich, and live like other immigrants do. They do not want jihad and they do not want to support wahabis.>
It would be nice if it were true but is it ? Islam seem to be nowdays at war with the “kaffirs” everywhere on this planet where there are muslims.
It is not the “fundamentalists” that arouse the hatred against muslims&Islam of the non-muslims but the lack of reaction to condemn and distance themselves from “jihadists” of that elusive class of “moderate muslims” -that is, muslims who don’t take ad literam Mo’s “kill them wherever you find them”.
I never had a prejudice against Islam and muslims before 9/11, as a graduate student I had as my best friend for 3 years an iranian muslim, yet when one reads the Koran and reads the history of Islam one can not avoid the conclusion that this is what is preached and demanded to muslims by their very cultural-religious identity.
It is nice to read some posters here, they remember me of my friend, but let me be skeptical that sandmonkey and few others here are representative of muslims. He is as much as Faraq Foda was.
Ros
Good points. It is true that the Aboriginal people had contact with a variety of cultures before Australia was invaded by white men in boats. It’s a very interesting part of Australia’s history that we don’t ever hear about. At school we are taught that the history of Australia began with the First Fleet. We celebrate Australian Day to coincide with the founding of Australia by the British. We celebrated Australia’s bicentenary not long ago as if Australia is only 200 years old. It’s a very Eurocentric view of history we have here and it’s a pity that we don’t celebrate and learn about our history before the settlers.
Tallulahdahling and Usual Suspect:
New zealand had simlimar immigration laws towards non-european and also non-british people in the early years and its only recently, probably thirty years, as with australia, and for the same reasons you state I expect, that they opened the flood gates to waves of immigrants; who came from asia and the sub contient mostly. New zealand has always had indian cummuinities through the relation with british empire. About 15 years ago Auckland probably almost doubled in population with immigarnats from china and the pacific islands. People freaked out a bit at first but 15 yeaqrs later everyone gets along. Our main immigrants groups, chinese/indo chinese, inidans and pacific islands are excellent citizens, harmonious, hard working, law-abidding, and assimilated, if thats not too crude a term. We have lesser communities of muslims, the mayority of which are of indian descent. These people are friendly, open minded, and polite. Model citizens.
personally i don’t get it with the muslims in australia; those who are anti-social and refuse to assimmilate. Its sad and a little pathetic really; living in a country yet denying the culture and trying to maintain a sense of home through ludicrous customs and habits (the woman don’t work;they sit round watching Arab TV on sky all day in the stinking heat; the male children descend in to petty crime). What kind of crazy complexes will the kids of these people have. I pity them. Anyway, I ‘m not attcking muslims because mostly in my experince they are good people. I just don’t get these anal-retentive sppon-fed wahabbi-ist, fanatics who are too demented to ‘get along’. Every other immigrant group does. Whats the problem? I think they’re just lazy.
Ros,
The Anglo (presumably code for Christians and Jews, and aetheists?)
No. It’s short for “Anglo-Saxon” – no more, and no less. Kinda confused you did all that research on other people but didn’t know that “Anglo” refers to people descended from the Anglo-Saxon English.
Historical note on Anglo Saxons:
The Angles, the Saxons and the Jutes where Germanic tribes in Europe that migrated to England during the 4th and 5th century where the celtic locals where decimated and displaced (many celts where displaced to Wales, Scotland and Irland) .At one time the germanic tribes formed 7 kingdoms historically known as the age of heptarchy. The kingdoms where later unified under King Egbert of Wessex sometime around 850 A.D. The subjects where later collectively called Anglo-Saxon English and the term now includes decendants of the Northern Vikings, Norman French and Celts still living on the Island.
Dom_inz:
I’ll give it a shot. I’ll take about my experience with British Muslims though. I think the problem is caused by a number of factors:
The Background of many of these people come from is poor, closed-minded societies and their basic knowledge about life comes sub-standard cram oriented education and Friday sermons by Ignorant imams who have absolutely no working historical, political and cultural knowledge other than that taught to them by their imams, who where in turn taught by theirs.
Like many Immigrants those fellows travel to the west in search for better lives and opportunities. However once there they come to a realization that their skills and educations are only sufficient to provide them with low class, bottom of the society jobs and low social standing, they inturn point the finger to racism . Such immigrants tend to live in ghettos with people from the same background. They continue to raise their children the same way they where raised and the rudimentay religious knowledge changes hands.
Then there is the rise of Imams (like Hilaly in Australia and Abu-Hamza al Masry of the UK) who are more than willing to take advantage of the ignorance.
On the other hand there is the highly educated, open minded skillfull labour who through hard work and through good relations with the locals are capable of reaching very high social standings. Their children go to universities and the story of success goes on.
[…] Petition is done- you can see it on my blog. Will take hard copies around to friends and send out emails tomorrow. But now it s 2am here and I ve been at work all day and have a boxing and spin class in exactly 8 hours time so I m … – more – […]
57. ramy:
Exactly! The problem is, the former outnumber the latter substantially, Sadly, none of the groups (not even the educated) break a sweat trying to condemn high-profile representatives like Hilaly, even going so far as to show indirect support like this Trad fellow.
Something along the lines of: “It’s terrible that young muslim boys are yelling ‘whore’ to local girls, but they really shouldn’t be walking in public showing their bare legs.”
There’s always that “but…”
“It’s horrible how someone could think of flying into those towers, but the americans sort of had it coming.”
“It horrendous how her family just killed that girl because she wouldn’t marry her cousin, but after all, it’s their culture.”
“It’s awful how many young muslim men end up with a criminal record, but the society doesn’t do enough to help them along.”
“We’re not trying to take over your society, but we feel offended that you serve roast pork at schools in the christmas season, even though it’s a traditional local dish”
I’m sorry, but we don’t have these sort of problems with the chinese, the brazilians, the italians, the canadians or the russians living here…
Adam.B,
I beg to differ. Claiming that you don’t have that sort of thing with immigrant chinese, brazillians, etc… is plain false. Each immigrant group especially those of low social standing come with different sort of problems, disease, organized crime, failure of integration, etc.. The reason why Muslims are being focused on is because of the various different conflicts concerning the Muslim world.
About the ” there is always a but…” part, offcourse there is always a but, everything has a reason. Life is never as easy as black and white as some prefer it to be. Some people find it far more comfortable to label things as good and evil, which was never a solution to anything.
I also disagree with you saying that groups don’t do enough to condemn people like Hilaly, you just don’t like listening to them since it is far easier to paint an entire group of people with the same brush.
Bassam Tibi on the european muslims and Europe’s tolerance of the intolerable at :
http://docs.google.com/View?docid=ah6sxjndq9qq_168d6b47d
Bassam Tibi is an unabashed alarmist. He is among Germany’s foremost political scientists, and an expert on political Islam. And he says that even now — after 9/11, after Madrid, after 7/7, and all the rest of it — the European elites don’t have a clue what they are up against.
“Europeans don’t know what Islamism is,” he argues. “We are talking about a new totalitarianism. And Islamists are establishing themselves in Europe with great success.” They thrive, thanks to Europe’s tolerance of the intolerable.
I asked Dr. Tibi how many of Germany’s 3.2 million Muslims share his progressive, secular views. “Maybe a few thousand,” he said.
http://docs.google.com/View?docid=ah6sxjndq9qq_168d6b47d
Dr. Tibi, a Muslim born in Syria, is persona non grata there.
He’s not too popular in Germany either, where he has been accused of inciting Islamophobia. “It is most disturbing to see how writers who try to warn about the totalitarian character of Islamism are defamed as racists,” he says. “This wrong-headed political correctness prevents any honest discussion about the subject.”
If Germany can’t make a truly moderate Muslim like Dr. Tibi feel welcome, then they are in serious trouble.
Thanks Craig, I do know that the ethnic group being abused was Anglo-Saxon; I am in part such an ethnic. However not all of the British settlers were Anglo, many Celts for example. Ramy I reckon you could get quite a fight from an Irishman or a Scot if you told them they were Anglo-Saxon Also there were dribbles from elsewhere, eg Muslim convicts from coastal Africa. Anglo-Saxon is in itself becoming a term of abuse, and it is certainly how Hilali used it. Used to be Anglo-Celtic, but it seems that the Irish and Scots are viewed more as victims than Anglo-Saxon aggressors these days. Before the Celts get up in arms I am also of Celtic descent.
I think also that Hilali’s level of ignorance on virtually all matters about Australia could lead to the conclusion that he was actually sneering at Christians and Jews because that is about all he believes about Australia, he equates Australian with Anglo-Saxon ethnicity from Christian and Jewish religion. Oh and that apparently we have a third sex here. I have no doubt he has no idea what Anglo-Saxon stands for or has any knowledge or understanding of Anglo-Saxon origins, history and culture. Consider his take on our British common law tradition, which he thinks is simply Anglo-Saxon.
In Egypt, he was known as Tag al-Moulk Abdallah, after moving to Lebanon Tag become Taj and in Australia Tajeddine el Hilali.
born 1941 Egypt studied Arabic at Al-Azhar University Cairo, 1960 become political member of the Muslim brotherhood, 1982 Travels to Australia overstays his Tourist visa, 1988 gives anti Semitic lecture, 1989 become Mufti of Australia, 1990 gets permanent residence, 1999 arrested in Egypt after trying to smuggle out Paranoiac antiquities, 2004 causes out cry after his sermon at the Sidon mosque where he said 9/11 was gods work…… as well as a host of other stupid things.
Ros, sorry, I misunderstood… you were stating how you thought he was using the term, not your own opinion. I should have read more carefully I guess 🙂
[…] born 1941 Egypt studied Arabic at Al-Azhar University Cairo, 1960 become political member of the Muslim brotherhood, 1982 Travels to Australia overstays his Tourist visa, 1988 gives anti Semitic lecture, 1989 become Mufti of Australia, … – more – […]
Hilaly’s Dark History
A conversation with my Dad in which he tells me what happened between him and Hilaly in Lakemba back in the 90’s.
Now posted on my blog
(I’m a bit of a computer illiterate so this way is much easier for me than posting a link which will take me about an hour to work out- sorry!)
Ros,
Ramy I reckon you could get quite a fight from an Irishman or a Scot if you told them they were Anglo-Saxon
I imagine he would. I went to a public school in New York for a couple years that was only about 20% white, and that 20% was Irish. So I had to hang out with the Irish kids, in self defense. Anyone whose been to public school in New York knows what I’m talking about. I almost got my ass kicked when one of the kids (who was actually Irish from Ireland) saw my surname and said “What kind of name is that?” and I was dumb enough to tell him. From then on, for as long as I was at that school, I was an Irish kid 🙂
60. ramy:
You might beg to differ, but – statistically – you would be wrong… Numbers say that criminal activity among 1st, 2nd and even 3rd generation muslims in Denmark is a whopping 40% higher than the average of the country, and even higher for those below 18. No other ethnic group distinguishes itself, except for greenlanders (but that’s an internal problem and partially our own fault). As an example, on average, 1st generation chinese do not integrate, but neither do they burden society in any way other than what is normal. 2nd generation chinese are completely integrated in our society, language wise as well as culturally (in that they respect and for the most part live according to the the laws and customs of our country)
Life is not black and white, I agree with you there, but there are some things that should just not be defended under any circumstances. That no opportunity is missed to insert a “but…” only shows that you at least partially agree with or have sympathy for said action. sorry, but in my way of thinking you don’t excuse murder, rape, crime, terrorism or even refusal to aknowledge local custom UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.
It may be that the media in general just don’t show enough interest in the voice of moderates, simply because it doesn’t sell… Whatever the case, you can always make yourself heard in one way or another… Write a letter to the readers section of your newspaper. Put up a sign in your shop. Arrange a demonstration in front of an embassy. Found an organisation, union or society – we love those in Denmark, and they are certain to get attention!
The Usual Suspect Says:”Keysar Trad’s half arsed comment dressed up to look like an apology is bullshit. That man consistently uses the defence of “take his comments in context”. Trad is well known down under for some pretty stupid comments himself.”
TRad’s main job seems to be to follow behind Hilali and claims his comments were poorly translated or taken out of context. Australlia ought to deport them both.
The Usual Suspect Says:”And as for the constant media hype about Hilaly representing all Australian Muslims- for the last time- Hilali does NOT, I repeat NOT represent us- He was not elected to speak for anybody.”
He was “elected” by a majority of Australian Muslim organisations last I heard. He is still the Imam of Australia’s largest moque. Like it or not, Australian Muslims know what he is like and still accept his leadership. He *does* represent “you all” – you all know what he is like and “you”, or at least a significant section of the Australian Muslim commumity, continue to support him as Mufti. He has not been censured much less sacked. Say what you like about Howard, he kicked Pauline Hanson out of the Liberal Party.
The Usual Suspect Says:”I’m starting a petition for all Muslims to denounce Hilali and his stupid arse comments (ofcourse I won’t use the words stupid arse on the petition- pissfarty maybe but stupid arse is just not technical enough).”
Good luck. Let us know if you break three figures.
The Usual Suspect Says:”If we sit by and do nothing we will are complicit.”
Totally. See the problem as Australian Muslims have not sat by and done nothing. They have repeatedly forgiven Hilali. Endorsed him in fact.