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If Iran developes them as well, Mubarak has hinted. Some people will consider this postion as hypocritical since he wouldn't develop them while Israel posessed them, but I wouldn't nor should any sane person. Israeli nukes are not a threat to Egypt, Iranian nukes are!
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Israel plans to take out the region if defeated by invading armies. It’s called the Samson complex. So yeah,their nukes are as much a threat as anyone’s.
“Israel plans to take out the region if defeated by invading armies. It’s called the Samson complex.”
I thought the word was “conspiracy theory”?
But, again, the Israel nukes are only going to be used in a last ditch defensive attack. I don’t see the Joooz raining nukes down on Cairo and Damascus and Beirut with no reason.
Unlike what an unstable Iran would do because they think they can get away with it (by providing them to Hezbollah or whoever) or because they are far away.
Iran MUST BE stopped Sandmonkey. Egyptian Nukes, are mearly Protection for our region, against these exrteamly hateful anti-Semtic terrorist Mullahs in Iran. you know damn well that they would like nothing more then to Invade and Convert everyone in the region. If Iran is not taken care of I am affraid that in 20 years time, we will be making Pilgramige to Karbala, and kissing the hands of Ayatolaa- Asshola.
Iran is clearly Anti-Semetic, and clearly harbors hate towards all those of non-Indo European dissent, Semites be they Jews or arabs must stand up to these terrorists.
Iran has called for Israel to be wiped of the map, what more proof does the world need that these people are dangerous and disturbed, time and time again the Mullahs have called for the invation of Saudi Arabia, and the killing of all Arabs. Iran is the biggest threat to the security of our region, we must remain vigiliant towards these Extreamists. When Iran called for Israel to be wiped of the map, they made a direct threat towards a Soverign nation, Israel should wipe the floor with them.
Libyan Warror is blunt, but he has a point.
If Egyptian nukes are not a threat to Israel tell me this. What will happen to Egyptian weapons systems after Mubarak dies and fanatical groups (the muslim brotherhood) scramble to topple Gamal and take power?
This has been one of our biggest fears for a few years now, in fact most dont expect the current “stability” (if you can call it that) to last more than 10 years. So what then? A nuclear Egypt with the Brotherhood at the helm?
D.B has a point, but this is exactly why we must destroy Iran. I gaurantee you if Iran is wiped of The Map the MB and Hamas will cease to exist. The MB in my opinion is nothing more then a enemy within egyptian boarders, they are Irans military, hiding out amongsts the Muslims of Egypt. When the time comes the MB will begin killing Muslim men and raping Muslim women, and converting what ever part of the population Survives to the Shia religion. Hamas is Irans Army in Palistine, they shall follow suit, they have already incorperated the Ishamili sect of The Shia Religion’s teachings of Terrorism. And the more Funding the recive from Iran the more perverted, and disturbing they shall become. I dont fear a responsible egypt with Nukes, Egypt is directly next door to Israel, any Nuclear attack on Isreal will have devistating effects on Egypt, and every other nation in the region. Israel is a very small carving of The Sham region, using a “Nuclear Weapon”.lol. not likley. But with that being Said a Shia Egypt with a Nuclear weapon might be a problem. Shias are extreamly suicidal, god knows whats in their books, god knows what their mullahs tell them, i mean look at what they do during their holidays, they run around stabbing each other in the street bathing in each others blood, men, women and children. Such Sick people shouyld notbe tolerated. We all must be vigilant against Iran.
Libyan
Lets be clear, I have no doubt that Iran does sponsor some rebel groups for example Hezbollah but its not a free pass to label every group as an agent of Iran. Its just a technicality but if we assume that without Iran the MB will not exist we will be making a HUGE mistake. First of all MB isnt goint to take orders from a Shi’a leader. Thats one, Two the MB was established (with a millitary wing) in 1928 to fight the british occupation long before Irans Islamic revolution so lets not get things twisted. Yes Hamas is an offshoot of the MB but more inspired by then funded by. We give these guys WAAAAAAAAAY too much credit. Kinda like when a gun goes off in lebanon and everyone looks over at Syria.
Bet your fucking life “OK”
Have patience my Friend.:)
An Iranian friend of mine viewed the Sadam tape. According to him…among Saddam’s last words were, “Iraqi’s…kill as many Americans and Persians as you can”.
You know…the ME or I guess the entire world has no shortage of hatred, ambition, self-righteouness and…as would logically follow…tragedy and suffering.
How do we stop this stuff? It does not look real good for mankind…very very sad.
You had better mind your P’s and Q’s then, monkey. He wants to nuke you! And all the others like you! Bad monkey! No!
Howie,
“You know…the ME or I guess the entire world has no shortage of hatred, ambition, self-righteouness and…as would logically follow…tragedy and suffering.”
Hatred, ambition and self-righteousness are basic human traits. They’ve existed since the dawn of mankind. Today’s civilized world have taken the battles to the market place and political arenas where “Hatred, ambition and self-righteousness” are very alive but without the associated tragedy and suffering. Infact the pursuit of self-interest played a very important role in the high levels of cultural and industrial development seen in the past couple of hundred years.
The question is : When will the middle-east follow the rest of the world? When will it’s battles be restricted to the market and politics?
Note: I’m not saying the Islamic World because much of the non-middle eastern Islamic countries have already followed the rest of the worlds pace (Malaysia, Indonesia, and to a certain level even Pakistan).
Welcome to “the table”! Don’t notice the bullseye on the back of your chair. It’s a bit unnerving.
but this is exactly why we must destroy Iran. I gaurantee you if Iran is wiped of The Map the MB and Hamas will cease to exist. The MB in my opinion is nothing more then a enemy within egyptian boarders, they are Irans military, hiding out amongsts the Muslims of Egypt.
Libyan warior
Who exactly is we you refer to?
As for MB it is strange that you have not noticed MB parliamentarians in Jordan, MB people in Syria, MB followers is Pakistan and some MB people in Europe. Hamas will hardly cease to exist when KSA send them money and transport of weapons go through tunnels from Egypt.
Some people in Iran may be a danger (particularly Ahmadinejad and Yazdi) but wishing to kill all iranians shows only that you can hate, nothing else.
ramy
Pakistan certainly followed the world pace. The difference between rich and poor is growing daily, madrassas grow like mushrooms after the rain, taliban-like rulers in north-west frontier province and federally administered tribal areas are given a free rein and are supplying men and materiel to taliban in Afghanistan.
Indonesia also did follow the pace of the world, the current “anti-pornography” bill before Parliament is aimed not only at publications and movies, but also at outlawing immodest dress and displays of affection such as kissing in public and dancing. The fact that about 17% of Indonesian live under the poverty line and the inflation about 10% convinced many that introducing Islam laws for all indonesians is one thing to keep Indonesia going. Another one is, of course, oil.
ella,
Are you being sarcastic?
“the difference between rich and poor is growing daily, madrassas grow like mushrooms after the rain, taliban-like rulers in north-west frontier province and federally administered tribal areas are given a free rein and are supplying men and materiel to taliban in Afghanistan.”
Where did you get all this info? To the best of my knowledge Pakistan is in cahoots with the US when it comes to fighting the taliban. I was talking about industrialization and economic growth by the way.
Pakistans economy:
GDP = 2100 per capita (medium scale economy)
Average GDP growth = 6%/year
Industrial growth = 10%
Heavy industrial growth 18%
People below poverty line down to 23% in 2006 from 36% in 2000
Pakistan’s KSE 100 Index (Pakistan’s stock market) is one of the best performers in the world.
“the current “anti-pornography” bill before Parliament is aimed not only at publications and movies, but also at outlawing immodest dress and displays of affection such as kissing in public and dancing.”
I think these are internal matters that each country decides on it’s own based on its own culture and religion. BTW I don’t think pornography, immodest dressing and public kissing count as progress. Progress is GNP, economic growth, employment rate, literacy rates, etc. Indonesia is a rising industrial power house.
Indonesia’s Economy:
GDP growth is at about 6%,
unemployment is contracting (now at 9 – 10%) and
The Jakarta stock exchange is ever on the rise( 35% in 2005).
The inflation is at 17% because the government floated the currency in 1997 and due to internal economic structural difficulties there was a delay in currency stabalization.
About the people below poverty line it is (27% not 17%), you have to remember that it is still a developing country and as the GNP rises so will the standards of living (compared to Vietnam:37% below PL and cambodia: 38%)
Wow. Howie, I’m not sure you know exactly how exactly correct you are. Hatred and ambition asside, how the fuck do we fix this??? We here in the US have a cancer, called “Liberals”, who want to talk and talk. Israel is Olmert, who just can’t kiss enough asses. China only cares about themselves, and Russia is too lost to do anything. (Brittian has our cancer, as well…) So what do we do? How do we put the worms back into the can, NOW?? “My Mood??–I’m in a Jihad now” as soon as he discovers which direction up is, will fire upon Israel. They will retaliate. (hopefully this all ends here) Even so, nuclear fallout will cross into Egypt, and the rest of the ME. And that is the bestest outlook. Dandy, huh?
Vic in South San Francisco.
Damn it.
The president of Iran’s name is “My Mood??–I’m in a Jihad again”.
Sorry about that.
//Vic
Eat it, Charlie Johnson:
http://hypocalypse.com/home/node/95
Abraham was a crazy prick don’t you think? He was going to murder his own son to satisfy the imaginary spagetti monster in the sky. Pretty fucking crazy if you ask me. Then the voices in his head allowed him to change his murder plans, no doubt a good thing, but still fucked up.
The current Abraham is ignorant of what lots of other Muslims say, do and write. Or, maybe he’s just a bigot.
Sam,
It is interesting that, for all the political rhetoric and foaming at the mouth about Israel — no one has EVER been afriad of Israel nuking anybody “out of hand.”
But the loonies in charge of Iran — that’s a threat that needs to be addressed. They will fucking nuke somebody — and three guesses who that will be.
“I think these are internal matters that each country decides on it’s own based on its own culture and religion.”
Yes, ramy, so if Indonesia by rule will require hijab that will be their internal matter, based on their own culture and religion. If some countries in the west try to ban hijab it is not their internal matter, according to tiny minority of muslims living in these countries. You also forget that 18% Indonesian are of different religion than the muslim majority. However muslim complain about “rasism” in the west when they are only 1-4% of the western countries population.
“Indonesia is a rising industrial power house.”
Yep, because of oil.
Export:oil and gas, electrical appliances, plywood, textiles, rubber
Import: machinery and equipment, chemicals, fuels, foodstuffs
“To the best of my knowledge Pakistan is in cahoots with the US when it comes to fighting the taliban.”
Really, why don’t you read on Pakistani politics and tribalism and then write what you wrote here. BTW where is your best knowledge coming from, hmm?
As for industrialization of Pakistan, tell me, how can a country industrialize when literacy rate is ~48%.?
ella,
Don’t compare apples to oranges. The Muslims in the west should be dealt with in accordance to the laws and tranditions and I totally agree that if muslims want to live in the west they should obey the laws of the land. I’ve never heared of minorities with no complaints. They always do, its upto the government to decide how to accomodate their complaints.
About Indonesia :
The Services Sector accounts for 45% of the GDP
The Agricultural Sector = 15%
The Industrial Sector (yes which includes the oil)= 40%
The GDP from Oil export is only 12%
About Pakistan,
Pakistan is a developing country and most developing countries have very high rural populations who are illiterate the numbers usually decrease in time. How do you judge if a country is industrialising or not? By Industrial Growth figures. Do you know anything about macroeconomics?
The north of the coutry is basically locally ruled no – man lands akin Afghanistan.
About my knowledge, i’ll tell you I’m an avid reader of economics and history.
If you want to confirm the info here are two v.good sources:
https://www.cia.gov/
http://www.imf.org/
or good all http://www.wikipedia.org
I have answered your questions in pain staking detail, because I thought you really wanted to know. What I’m guessing now is that you’re simply out to proove a point with as little info as possible, i.e.They’re Islamic countries so the must be backward , while ignoring the fact that 70% of the world is actually countries that are still in early stages of development whether they’re Muslim or not.
Islam is not the issue when it comes to economics, the issues are good governance and sound fiscal policies.
ramy
I am not comparing apples to oranges.
You say that the north of the country is no-man land. True, but it still is a Pakistan, at least the government of Pakistan says it is a Pakistan. Therefore you can not say that the country is industrializing, you have to consider the whole of the country not a part of it.
You also forget why pakistan’s GDP has worth 51% from the services. There is a note at the site you have given (CIA) note: extensive export of labor, mostly to the Middle East, and use of child labor
If you want to compare apples to apples why don’t you compare Pakistan to South Korea and Indonesia to China. There are more similar population-wise and etnicity-wise. I do not think that the comparison will be favourable for Pakistan or for Indonesia.
As for the industrialization, I also gave you the reason why Indonesia’s economy is booming. It is because of oil, not because of anything else, and the export/import data given was taken straight from the cia world factbook.
There is somewhat different view if we look not at the GDP but at labour distribution( i.e. by occupation)
GDP composition by sector
agriculture – 13.4
Industry – 45.8
services 40.8
labour force by occupation:
agriculture – 46.5
industry – 11.8
services – 41.7
I also never said that because these countries are muslim they must be backward. One of the country which is not “backward” is Iran, although the economy at the moment is growing solely because of oil.
Again data from the factbook:
GDP – composition by sector:
agriculture: 11.6%
industry: 42.4%
services: 46%
Labor force – by occupation:
agriculture: 30%
industry: 25%
services: 45%
If you look at the country, any country, you have to take into consideration not only GDP but also a distribution of labour.
As for the laws and tradition. You say that minorities are always complaining. True. But the west is open/democratic so the governments have to listen not only to majority of the population but also to minorities, otherwise the minorities accuse them of racism. The governments of Islamic countries do not need to listen to the minorities, they and the majority of the population do not care a damn for the minorities.
Ella,
I think this debate is going no where. I’ll make my points clear:
1- South east asian countries including Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia are rapidly growing industrial economies. All the figures indicate this. You could ask any economist (or a student with minor in economics) and he would tell you that.
2 – Pakistan is having problems with it northern territories mostly because the northern part of the country is an Arid mountainous region which is impossible for the government (or any government) to put under absolute control. Hell, the US is unable to control Afghanistan (or even an urban city like Baghdad).
3 – You said “But the west is open/democratic so the governments have to listen not only to majority of the population but also to minorities”, so what the hell is the problem then, what’s your point?
What I understand from this is that you’re saying – “since governments in Muslim majority countries are giving minorities a hard time we should do the same to our muslim minorities.”
Well, what I can say is this: Every government decides based on its own political system and considerations. You want to give your muslim minority a hard time – fine, its up to the US (or any other) administration and voter body to decide. Fair: NO, but it is the way of the world. I think minorities everywhere should fight against any form of discrimination, may that be in Muslim countries or else where.
N.B. Labor distribution and GDP are entirely different, and are not indicators of industrial growth. Agricultural and Service sectors are known to be more labor demanding than Industrial sectors.
Again Oil Exports account for only 12% of Indonesian economy unlike Saudi where the number is closer to 75%.
Please tell me what your point is.
What I understand from this is that you’re saying – “since governments in Muslim majority countries are giving minorities a hard time we should do the same to our muslim minorities.”
No I am not saying that. I am saying that governments and people of the muslim countries (in the middle east and outside of it) should not complain of the treatment of muslim minority in the west and the racism as well as “arrogance” of the west when the worse and worsening treatment of minorities is not addressed in their own countries. If that would not be addressed the muslim countries would not follow the world pace and the “Hatred, ambition and self-righteousness” will go hand in hand with the associated tragedy and suffering.
That was the point I was trying to make in response to your statement ““Hatred, ambition and self-righteousness” are very alive but without the associated tragedy and suffering. in non-middle eastern islamic countries which “have followed the world pace” (examples you gave was Indonesia, partially pakistan and malaysia -58% muslim population)