Mahmoud Salem
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Goodbye checks and balances, goodbye venezuelean democracy, hallo one man rule:

Venezuelan lawmakers gave initial approval to a bill granting President
Hugo Chavez the power to rule by decree for 18 months so that he can
impose sweeping economic, social and political change.

Emboldened by his landslide re-election last month, the leftist
leader has called for "revolutionary laws" to accelerate the country's
transformation into a full socialist state.

"This process is unstoppable," lawmaker Juan Montenegro Nunez told
the National Assembly Thursday. "This process is a historic necessity."

The vote was unanimous as the National Assembly has been entirely
filled with Chavez's allies since opposition parties boycotted 2005
elections.

Chavez began his third term last week by announcing his intent to
nationalize key sectors of the economy, rewrite the country's
constitution to eliminate presidential term limits, and strip the
Central Bank of its autonomy.

He also called for an end to foreign ownership of lucrative crude
oil refineries. Venezuela is the world's fifth oil producer and the
fourth supplier to the United States, its top customer.

"What is becoming evident is that all the powers are one single
power in Venezuela — Hugo Chavez," said opposition politician Gerardo
Blyde.

[…]

Chavez has formed a commission to rewrite the constitution in
keeping with his socialist vision and expects to hold a referendum on
the changes by the end of the year. Chavez has already revised the
constitution once since he took office in 1999.

Among the changes, Chavez is seeking an end to presidential
term limits, which would allow him to run again for the presidency in
December 2012.

Chavez has been emboldened to make more radical changes at home
after winning re-election with 63 percent of the vote, his widest
margin ever.

Chavez says he is crafting a new sort of "21st century
socialism" for Venezuela. Critics say it is starting to look like
old-fashioned totalitarianism by a leader obsessed with power.

You know I agree! 

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71 thoughts on “Chavez can do as he pleases now

  1. Critics say it is starting to look like
    old-fashioned totalitarianism by a leader obsessed with power.

    Starting to?

    Unfortunately, the fawning sandalistas could care less.

  2. “This process is unstoppable,” lawmaker Juan Montenegro Nunez told
    the National Assembly Thursday.

    So true.

    Goodbye, Venezuela, it was nice knowing you. We’ll be here to help you back into the real world when Chavez kicks it/is deposed/loses it.

  3. What a mess, Chavez is a despot in the making, if not already, his plans are going to make Venezuela much worse, he’s a total nut job.

    absurd thought –
    God of the Universe hates
    free competition

    no need to try to improve
    with a monopoly…
    .

  4. Close to 30 years ago Libyan leader Guddafi did the same thing. Released the “Green Book”, the guide to political, social and economic reform. 30 years later…..well….fill in the blanks. It does not take an expert to pedict the future of Venezuela!

  5. And US liberal democrats supported him. Showing that liberals are either profoundly mentally redarded as a group, profoundly mentally ill such that reality has little bearing on their consiousness or hard core communists. I suspect a venn diagram of democrats in the US showing these three traits would have a huge overlap.

  6. Was it here, or at Big Pharaoh’s place, that AmusedVenezuelan was talking about how Hugo is a democratically elected politican, and anti-Chavistas are just US stooges, and Venezuelans support Chavez and if they decide he’s gone too far, they’ll just turn him out? And I remember thinking oh baby, if you believe that you can just vote the man out, then I have some mountain front property in Houston, Texas that you might want to buy. Cos whether they realize it or not, Venezuelans have now got themselves a genuine Latin American throwback, the President for Life. Now sit back and watch Saudi Arabia pump up oil production, and Venezuela’s oil revenues go plunging down – it will not be pretty.

  7. So what will all the fawning “revolution will not be televised” Chavistas in the US & Europe say now? Remember how he was just an ordinary democratic socialist who was receiving undeserved scorn for “standing up” to American imperialism and helping the poor?

    Well, well, since when does your average Social Democrats seize all power, rule by decree, silence the opposition, rewrite the constitution and clear the path to a life-long presidency? Are those chirping crickets I hear?

    P.S.- Oh, and watch as he does NOTHING for those in grinding poverty once he has consolidated power. They’ll receive a pathetic pittance from the oil revenue and be told the poverty and crime is the fault of American “interlopers.”.

  8. Oh cynical SM,

    Just because socialism has failed every where it has surfaced doesn’t mean it will fail this time…

    …does it?

  9. Despite everyone who’s not a left-wing moron proving to be correct, don’t expect them to admit it – ever. They’ll go to the usual “this isn’t real socialism.” Socialism is the only system which has been implemented dozens of times, but “never actually tried.” It’s a religion for people with a simplistic zero-sum view of the world.

  10. Amused Venezuelan was posting here… he had the naivety to believe that they’ll be able to vote him out if Chavez gets out of line. HA HA! Good luck w/ that buddy.

    Chavez already gives poor people free food, then tells them that the opposition will take away their food. Pretty soon he’ll be relected by 99% of the vote & he’s gonna be El Presidente for life. He’ll probably invade Cuba after Castro dies to prop it up a while longer while he’s at it.

    What a total f#*king loser & I can’t believe how stupid & gullible people are for supporting him in any way.

  11. Watching a Socialist Dictator in Action

    Taking away the rights of Venezuelans isn’t gentle. He’s turning Venezuela into a dictatorship. It doesn’t matter whether he’s doing it gently or not. Chavez is living up to his nickname [T]hugo.

  12. Every dictatorship always rises on the backs of the poor. The believe the phoney promises (alot like our liberal democrats) then are suprised when the only thing they get to share is the misery.

    I hate reruns too. Guess we should be getting ready for the refugees?

  13. Guess we should be getting ready for the refugees?

    You mean “guerrillas” I think! And hopefully Chavez is the only one who should be getting ready for them!

  14. “Well, well, since when does your average Social Democrats seize all power, rule by decree, silence the opposition, rewrite the constitution and clear the path to a life-long presidency?”

    Tony Blair is a typical Social Democrat, and he has done some rather destructive rewriting of the UK constitution.

    Not the other things, though.

  15. ‘sigh’

    People never learn, people never *think*. “trust me” said the con-man “that watch is truly gold…”

  16. People here need to know the difference between a Social Democrat and a Democratic Socialist as they are quite different

    Democracic Socialism attempts to dismantle the capitalist system via the ballot box – good examples would Salvador Allende or Hugo Chavez, decree-ruling aside

    Social Democracy is more about regulating the capitalist system to make it work for the population as a whole, whilst still encouraging private investment – Bill Clinton and Tony Blair could both be described as Social Democrats

    Don Cox – in defence of Blair, the United Kingdom does not have a constitution so there is nothing he can re-write, destructively or otherwise
    passing laws, on the other hand still requires Parliament to debate and approve, so it would not be fair to attribute all the blame to one person

    anyway, back to the topic at hand – i think Chavez is an absolute douchebag for persuing his goals without even the pretence of democratic methods. He has crossed the line from Democratic Socialist to Socialist dictator.

    His domestic policy seems to be based on controlling the country by silencing his opponents – by (mostly) non-violent means – for now
    His foreign policy alarms me even more, as it seems be based on angering Washington as much as possible by courting enemies of the US and, even more frighteningly on a personal level, destabilising neighbouring Colombia by offering clandestine support for rebels in their 40+ year war against the state

    to summarise, Chavez is a dangerous man and i would support his removal by non-democratic methods – as long as any replacement implements a return to democratic rule with minimal pain

  17. What ever happened to the Amused Venezuelan who posted on your last Chavez posting, SM? He’s got to be here somewhere, assuring us that this would not, could not happen, Sam-I-Am. Not even with green eggs and ham!

    Tyranny is on the rise people, and only the communal mind of the blogosphere and the net in general stand a chance of stopping it. Viva-la-resistance!

  18. Well, at least this is good for the economy here in Alberta. There are already several thousand Venezuelan emigres here in the oil industry (since Chavez forced in Chavistas in the early part of the decade); now they’ll be staying, and I expect more will be coming. It’s cold here, but OTOH, it’s easier to go to Mass or get a BLT than in Saudi. Natives are a tad friendlier as well.

  19. “The vote was unanimous as the National Assembly has been entirely
    filled with Chavez’s allies since opposition parties boycotted 2005
    elections.”

    SM, what checks and balances?

  20. Well i think what Vhavez is doing is very democratic ! I think in that we in the Arab world are so much disillusioned by western ideals, we cant think for ourselves, we just extract wetern codes and superimpose them in totally different contexts. Demcracy in our world, as i see it, is social justice, fair distribution of wealth and power across society, keeping our Arabic hertiage intact and develop it into a competetive Arab civilisation that stem out from our reality.

  21. Amre,

    “Demcracy in our world, as i see it, is social justice, fair distribution of wealth and power across society, keeping our Arabic hertiage intact and develop it into a competetive Arab civilisation that stem out from our reality. ”

    While those may all be laudable goals, they have precious little to do with Democracy. Democracy means rule by the people, which will naturally result in governmental policies that reflect the will of the people governed. Since not all people want the same thing, two different democratic countries may end up looking very different, while still being equally democratic.

    Chavez may be pursuing laudable goals (I don’t think so, but you can disagree), but he is clearly eroding the ability of the people to control things politically, and is therefore antidemocratic. Antidemocratic is not automatically evil…constitutions are inherently antidemocratic. But history tells us that people who curtail democracy so as to put more power into their own hands are usually not really looking out for anyone but themselves.

  22. Rob

    The Brits do have a constitution — an unwritten one. It consists of custom, tradition, and legal precedent. The Magna Carta is considered to be a part of the British constitution. Perhaps the first part.

    As for Hugo Chavez, the people of Venezuela have the inalienable right to choose their own road to hell.

    You cannot vote yourself prosperity.

  23. Antares,

    An unwritten constitution is not a constitution. The Magna Carta maybe, but legal precedent and tradition would do nothing to prevent Parliament from passing whatever law it wants.

  24. Antares,

    The “unwritten constitution” is nothing more than a concept called “The Supremacy of Parliament”. They could vote themselves perminent member status and that all people must eat cheese every Thursday through their nostrils in the same bill tomorrow if they wanted to. The people would have no effective legal recourse (yes, I know about the EU courts, but Britain largely ignores the heck out of those as it is now).

    Traditions haven’t stopped the Brits from throwing civil rights out the window whenever they want to in the past, though they usually do the honorable thing and restore it when it’s over. See WWII and the coalition government’s agreement to not have elections until the war was over for the most recent obvious example I can think of. Though this doesn’t mean that they neccissarily would in the future.

  25. @Brooklyn Jon

    Well, ” Democracy means rule by the people, which will naturally result in governmental policies that reflect the will of the people governed” I think that is more of a linguistic definition of Democracy. What i’m concerned about here is the ideal of democracy-which is fundamentally about actualising the will of majority whilst maintaing certain taboos that protect minorities. What happens in reality is, those in power that posesses suffcient resources manipulate the ill-informed disillusioned majority, in order to serve their ends. A vivid example is our Arab world which is by the way the only spot in the world that is quiet arguably eligible, to put forward an alternative to western global civilisation for historical and cultural reasons( the Arabs are pharoahs, babylonians, aramaics the creators of the cosmpolitan islamic Arab centered civilisation) the neo-cons persuaded the ill-informed american majority that iraq the most developed and secular arab country in terms of hi tech, women rights, education, health care is threat to American national security and a source of terror, while the “Dictator sadam hussien who created a modern prosperous state and was setting an example for the Arabs to folow is portrayed as undemocratic brutal bloodthirsty dictator. The alternative of sadam’s dictatorship is either pro-western regimes that over time would turn its citezens into souless clones like taiwan or hongkong, or a retarded backward regime like the iranian or the Saudi

  26. I am surprised that practically all the comments about Chavez are negative.

    Venezuela is one of the few rays of hope in this corporate-capitalist, globalized world.

    Chavez needs those powers to complete the task that he has set himself and has obviously gone about it in a democratic manner. His bill has already been initally approved by the National Assembly. So what’s the problem?!

    Of course the Opposition are complaining but that’s their job. They don’t have to be taken seriously. They’re probably all pro-capitalist swine anyway.

    I say we should at least give Chavez the time he needs as it take time to free his country from yanqui domination. Besides it is really good fun to see him
    sicking it to that criminal, Bush.

  27. Amre,

    I disagree.

    Democracy is all about the people deciding. And it is not about someone deciding that the bulk of the people must be stupid because they don’t agree with you.

    Democracy is also about people being allowed to try to pursuade others to their point of view, within certain bounds of taste and law. And yes, that means that Jews, like everyone else, get to promote their own self-interest, individually and collectively. You can, too. And when you do it, it is exacly as conspiratorial as when Jews (your so-called “Neocons”) do it – no more, no less.

    If the American people believed that Saddam Hussein was a threat to their security, then that’s their belief. If you think otherwise, then that’s your belief. If you think Americans are stupid, well maybe you’re right, but telling someone they’re stupid is not likely to convince them to go along with you. But, y’know, maybe, just maybe Americans are seeing something that you aren’t. And maybe YOU’RE the one who is uninformed. Maybe your ideological opponents have at least a kernel of truth to their argument. Maybe the range of opinions you’re exposed to on a regular basis is a little constricted. Maybe the news you’re getting is presented by people who share your bias, and are willing to mislead – or in some cases to outright fabricate – to engender support for their “side”. Is it possible?

    I don’t know you, and I don’t know where you are, and I don’t mean to presume. But I get exposed to wide varieties of belief on a daily basis in the little United Nations that is New York. But having lived elsewhere, I know that that is not necessarily true of all places.

    Incidentally, your comment that the Arab world is the only place where there can be an alternative to “western global civilization” is not one that I understand. But it sounds just a tad bizarre to me. Still I’m willing to listen to you explain yourself. But if you’re saying that there’s a whole lot in common between, say, Japan and Norway, or the USA and India, then you will have an uphill battle to convince me of anything.

  28. El Lobo,

    “Of course the Opposition are complaining but that’s their job. They don’t have to be taken seriously. ”

    In a non-Democracy that’s exactly correct. And that’s just the point.
    It takes a certain amount of humility to concede that you may not have all the answers, and that the opposition has something to contribute.
    You don’t need humility to lead a group of people. But you do need humility to lead them well.

  29. Brooklynjon

    well, i have nothing against any particular race or nationality, but definetly as an Egyptian man i prefer my own Arabic race, “within the limits of rationality ofcourse” You know i hate talking about myself, and i think you pressed my Arab eago when you implied tacitly that i’m a local ill-informed man and denied being presumptious while you actually are….anyway, am willingly going to fall into the trap, and i will have to tell you that travlled all over th states from Newyork to Keywest. i also travelled all over the world and at the present am living in scandnavia. and am open to all sorts of views . Needless to say, that i never minded defying an entire islamic society for what i thought at sometime was right.

    Now, about the Americans being ill-informed issue, there i’m forced to say that objective measures exsist for that. I dont remeber the exact figure, but there was a surprising issue on the BBC once, about a considerable percentage of American college students that dont know what is the capital Germany or someother very important country . Besides, the low quality of American college education is a constant issue in world media, which definetly gives you an indication of the quality of American education,putting aside rich boys schools……Also, when i was in America i remeber people asking me if Egyptians speak Hebrew!!!!! and what’s more, some were shocked because i have a white skin as they think the Egyptians are Black people haaaaaa and they dont even know they are arabs! maybe things have changed after the iraq war ……i dont know really. Now, moving on to the Arab civilisation argument, well, Japan is not a civilisation, it is an exceptional country on the far end of the world and because of its very local culture we can never call it a civilsation and it can never go beyond its borders. The indian culture and civilisation is limited to the geographic boundaries of the subcontinent. Furthermore, they have never made any serious contribution to the predominat western civilsation, only the Arabs(pharoahs, babylonians, somerians medival arabs who are the intgral sum of all the ancient phase of the Arab culture) did in addition to WESTENERS OFCOURSE.

    Jon…..am not trying to promote my blog, but i wrote a post called “Arabism and humanity” which i’d rather you read, then i doubt you would dismiss my pronouncments on the Arab civilisation as bizzare!

    Ironiclly, i can’t stopt myself speculating on what on earth….. i may have said that made you put me in a box and label it “ideological man”, am not ideological at all! The only thing that springs to my mind is that all people must be entitled to a good health care and education……that’s all. P.S Pan-Arabism is not an ideology……..it is reality, a living civilisation.300 million people who speak a very unique one language with common history, geography, religons(islam and oriental christianity). P.S the differentials among the Arabs are by far less than those among indians or chinese. Actually, a comparison would be a bit funny there.

    But, actually it is you who are very ideological! Democracy for you sounds to me like a trancendetal cosmopolitan totalitarian super ideology . It is the post-modern jesus of the western civilisation haaaaaa. Again, i can’t blame you, every human culture must have its own totems and the western totem is democracy

  30. “Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude. – Alexis de Tocqueville”

    Sounds like restraint and servitude to me…especially toward their capitalists. I’ve never met a serious private investor who’s a true socialist.

  31. Amre,

    I didn’t mean to tacitly imply anything. To quote myself, “I don’t know you, and I don’t know where you are, and I don’t mean to presume. ”

    Americans are pretty bad at the sort of knowledge that involves rote memorization. There’s nothing new there. We’re better at things that involve creativity than most other educational systems. Nothing new there either. Which is easier to test? Rote memorization, of course. The American ideal always insisted that you could always look it up anyway, which is true.

    Wanna really know which educational system kicks butt? Look at the people who cross international borders to go to college. America is chock full of foreign students. American students tend not to go abroad for college.

    Wanna know which post-graduate educational system kicks butt? Look at the foreign grad students. Look at the Nobel prizes. I think you’ll get your answer. I really couldn’t care less if some corn farmer in Iowa knows that Egyptians are Arabs (and, incidentally, I’ve silently witnessed a number of debates here at SM about that very issue – it seems that some Egyptians disagree with you).

    As far as Arab civilization vs other civilizations, I beg to disagree with you vehemently. Arab “culture” has spread beyond the Arabic peninsula because of the Muslim wars of conquest, and not because of any civilizational superiority. Language? There are a helluva lot more English and Chinese speakers than Arabic ones. Yes, Japanese culture no longer extends beyond its borders, because the USA beat them back in the 1940s, but that doesn’t make them less of a civilization. I fail to see how a history of expansionism and subjugation of the other makes a “civilization”, while a lack of that in one’s history makes one not a “civilization”. But the bigger issue is this “Wetern Global Civilization”. What is that? I suggest it doesn’t exist. America has its culture (And it’s a darn good one!). But the French would bristle at the suggestion that they’re part of our civilization, and they’d be right. And India? Come on! I think you are mistaking “modernity” for “civilization”.

    As far as Arabic contributions to western civilization, I believe they have been a bit exaggerated. Yes, algebra. And some geometric architectural forms. Sure. The claim on “zero” and “Arabic numerals” is pretty iffy, as it appears that they are actually from India. Beyond that, it’s pretty much all Judeo-Christian.

    “Ironiclly, i can’t stopt myself speculating on what on earth….. i may have said that made you put me in a box and label it “ideological man”, am not ideological at all! ”

    I was referring to your ideological opponents, who you labelled as “the neo-cons [who] persuaded the ill-informed american majority that iraq the most developed and secular arab country in terms of hi tech, women rights, education, health care is threat to American national security and a source of terror, while the “Dictator sadam hussien who created a modern prosperous state and was setting an example for the Arabs to folow is portrayed as undemocratic brutal bloodthirsty dictator.” You obviously had to have an ideology to have written this. I was pointing it out to you, and noting that in some places (such as where I live, in this regard) almost everyone shares the same ideology, and it can be hard to understand that there are other people who are reasonable and educated and still manage to disagree with you. In my case, I am the odd man out in left-leaning Brooklyn, so it’s pretty obvious to me.

    “Democracy for you sounds to me like a trancendetal cosmopolitan totalitarian super ideology ”

    I’m not sure what “cosmopolitan” and especially “totalitarian” are doing in that sentence, but absent them, I agree. I am a pro-democracy ideologue. Yes, that is a Western totem. We promote democracy, which is to say, we want you to decide what happens in your country, in the hope that (unlike leaders) people usually want more or less the same things – freedom, peace, opportunity, safety. At least we have assumed that people want freedom, although that may not be universally the case. Each country using democracy, will have a different government suiting local conditions. And there should be suitable protections for minorities to keep the majority from depriving them of their rights. Yep, that’s my ideology. You got me.

    “300 million people who speak a very unique one language with common history, geography, religons(islam and oriental christianity”

    This brings to mind three things:
    1) Any time someone uses this to argue that there is no such thing as “Palestinians” but only Arabs who are living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, they get shouted down as imperialist, racist, zionist scum
    2) You have omitted the Jewish Arabs, who are now mostly missing from the Arab world having been killed, harrassed, and forced to leave variously from the 1940s until now.
    3) Common history? Huh?

  32. BrooklynJon,

    He’s just a silly Arab Nationalist. Ignore him. Their ideology have failed, badly, and hopefully the last few remnants of them will soon go the way of the Dodo bird.

  33. “You don’t die for your country,
    you make the other bastard die for his.”
    – Gen. George S. Patton

    When it comes down to it, ideology gets really simple …simplify, simplify, simplify. I wanna keep breathing. You wanna keep breathing. I actually want you to keep breathinig. Let’s focus on working things out so we can all keep breathing. We might disagree, but our disagreements are futile if they take our lives away, eh?

  34. “Japan is not a civilisation, it is an exceptional country on the far end of the world and because of its very local culture we can never call it a civilsation and it can never go beyond its borders.”

    WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? If nothing else there is anime….

  35. Brooklyn Jon

    apparently you choose to answer what you like and forget what you dont like! The Arab tribes out of Arabia are semitic people ethnically and linguistically identical to babylonians Egyptians, yemenese, Aramaics. The civilsation spread through islam all over the region from spain to the great wall of china, and later on the islam unified and mingled different diverse cultures . That culture is the integral sum of middle eastern previous scattered cultures). Arabic architecture, science, music, litereture….etc have their roots in Egyptian, Bbaylnian, somerian ,Syrianic, yemense cultures.

    but what is judeo? ( i respect all religons icluding judaism) but that judaism is just a simple primitive religon of a perished semi fictional nation called the Hebrew one whose contribution to humanity belongs to the realm of fiction and mythology rather than sciense and history.

    the Pharoahs inscribed on their walls all the ancient nations babylonians, assyrians, lybians, aramaics, phoenysians…all but never ever recorded th word hebrew or israel haaaaa. The entire old testament is almost identical to babylonian and somerian epics, christianity is an extension of the ANCIENT EGYPTIAN osirian cult. The ten recommendments are literally identical to the the ancient Egyptian godess Ma’aat recommendations……… most probably thugs and slaves of inferior boarder nations who spent all their presumed ancient history enslaved in Egypt and Iraq, inflitrated elements of ancient cults in what is so called their holy book and over tom develped what is so called judaism . so the jews owe their heritage to the ARABS haaaa. Besides,, the Arabs were the most tolerent people with the Jews they lived in Arabic spain, Egypt, Baghdad unharmed. mOROVER THEY REACHED HIGHEST ADMINSTRITATIVE POST. In a time were the word jew in christian europe was synonmous with devil haaaaaa. So the jews owe their existance to the Arabs. Besides, i just dont understand those who crack down on religous states and fundamentalism( am very tolerant extremely scular moslem myself) while the entire existance of STATE LIKE ISRAEL IS BASED ON RELIGOUS INDENTITY HAAAAAAAAAAA ohhhhhh that just doesnt make sense…………By the way most theories about the ethnic origin of ashkinase jews are khazar turko-slavic tribes who escaped the arab conquests of central asia…………….the BLACK JEWS are Ethiopians, the german jews look like germans……………etc

    Jon again, you put words into my mouth jsut to heat up the conversation ,intimidate me and bring along support from fellow Americans.

    I NEVER SAID THE AMERICANS ARE STUPID, and nobody ever is, i literally said they are ill-informed.

    On the perconal level, i have nothing against Americans, on the contrary, i listen to American country music all the time, i watch Amercan films, i like the company of Americans who are easy going and fun, yet I HATE THE AMERICAN POLICIES IN THE ARAB WORLD and i tell them that.

    About the contribution of the 3rd phase of the Arab civilisation (the 1st is the ancient near-east, the second is greco-roman, the third is the semitic sum: the Arabic era)

    About the American education: am not going to discuss it because it wouldnt be good for me, i have nothing against America or Americans, i was simply trying to make an objective point concerning the American disillusions about the outside world.

    About wanting us to be free, am sorry to tell you but you absolutly have no right whatsoever to say that. If I were a LOW PERCON I WOULD HAVE propmtly TOLD YOU I CANT ACCEPT THOSE WHO ARE INFERROR TO ME AFFECT MY WILL.

    About the Jewish Arabs, frankly speaking, i have nothing against them. But we are free in in the Arab world, we dont want jews living in our countries it is a matter of perconal preferences…. and following your line of argument, that is very democratic because it is not just the will of the majority, it is actually a consensus. Besides, that is better for them if they had stayed they would have been harrassed badly. Last thing i perconally think that Jews are nice witty , fun sarcastic and ironic like us EGYPTIANS AND I WISH THEY WERE OCCUPYING SOMEWHERE ELSE THAN MY COUNTRY…….
    But as long as they are living in a place that doesnt belong to thm, then i have no choice but to hate the occupiers………………

    @Punique am not an Arab nationalist am just an arab idiot… and dont call me silly you creep……………………………….

  36. Amre!

    I am shocked at your racist views – you say that you don’t want Jews living in the Arab countries. But Jews have lived in Arab lands for centuries, at least until recently, and now they can’t live there (at least according to you).

    Isn’t this all a bit hypocritical given that you have admitted that you are now living in a Scandinavian country. Have you ever asked the Scandinavians whether they want you intruding into their country? Maybe it is time to go back to Egypt, or better still Arabia! Anyway, what are Arabs doing in Egypt?
    It is not their land. Go home I say!

  37. the Egyptians are ethnically Arabs……..haaaaaaaa all the Arabs from all the the over the Arab world speak the sam language, same society. all the ancient east babylon egypt aramia spoke languages that are vry close to each other within the same familly, belonged to a the spectrum of western euro-asian araboids and saharids in addition to mediterenian elements… all spread all over the Arab world. the ancient near east was a “system on its own” in which all the Egyptians, levantines, Mesopotamians intermingled, influenced among eachother culturally, politically and genetically!. Arabic history is too complex and limited to a geagraphically restricted area- in which huge immigrations from the deserts of Arabia and north african shara formed the bulk of population in the Euphrates and Nile valley. The entire history of the 2 great civilastions is successive waves of immigrations apannd by several centuries from the time of mena narmer and hammorabi…… till the last Mohammedean wave that the consolditaed Egypt, yemen, Arabia mesopotamia and the levant which has always the unifying bridge between Egypt and Mesopotamia into one unifying Arabic nationality.

    Ironically and sadly, in india they speak 1500 languages most of them are from different origins some are dravidic australoidis, turko tartaric, indo-European…and racially they are big salad. the dialectic and physical features diversity among northgern mandolene chinese and southern cantonese are less than that between Moroccans and iraquis lol…..

    There, one can only imagine the how situation in the Arab world would have been if the relative isolation and expulsion of foreign bodies, as it is in in the sieeno-Indian case had been the issue in our Arab world.

    About the jews it is not me who want them out of Arab countris it is the entire poulation. Perconally am a very secular percon, and i have no problems about jews or whatever living in Egypt. But i assure you that the overall percentage of people who think likewise is zero%. On shear pragmatic basis, leaving Arab countries was better for them for safety reasons.

    About scandnavians 90% of scandnavian people( shown by polls , politcal votes) dont have problem with foreigners as long as they respect the law, mainstream culture and the society they live in . All sorts of racism in these beautiful countries would most probably automatically disappear if the muslims try harder to integrate, learn the languge and adopt as much as possible of the host culture. Cultural diversity is a beautiful value well-appreciated up here. Unfortunately, what is happening in Europe is cultural polraisation, rather than benign diversification, basically due to ill-informed sixties European immigration policies which synergised with the plethora of intractable difficulties hitting the Arab-muslim world, leading to the current situation

    In my case i’m well integrated and most of my friends are scandnavians as i respect the society i live in, in terms of, working hard , keeping things intact……etc.

    Finally, am not a violent guy and always abstain from temper flares. As, I accept all sorts of views and opinions and i have no taboos at all. But i assure that no human being on earth can tell me “dont stay in the “ARAB rebublic of Egypt” my country. Sadly, not all Egyptians are like me. Let a forgeinger say “Arabs leave egypt aloud in words in a crowded square. I assure that he will be fed to street dogs………….

  38. Amre,

    Holy smoke!

    I don’t choose only to answer what I like. But I only have so much time, and so much of what you write needs comment, there is no way to comment on it all.

    Israel is not founded on a religious identity. It is founded on a nationalist identity. For the most part, the Jews who founded Israel were secular (or even atheist) Communists.

    Yes yes, the Arabs used Islam and the sword to spread their culture around. And what of it? That makes it inherently superior to any other culture? Or to those cultures it snuffed out? I suggest that it makes it neither superior nor inferior. It makes it more agressive. That’s all.

    I am greatly gladdened that you have respect for my “simple primitive religon ” and of my “perished semi fictional nation ”
    Well, we like to think that our religion is neither simple nor primitive. Perhaps can direct you to “The Gifts of the Jews”, a rather interesting book written by Thomas Cahill, an Irish Catholic. Unlike the Egyptians, who would have ample reason not to discuss their unpleasant interactions with the Jews, Josephus the Roman historian, wrote at length about the Jewish kingdom around 2100 years ago. He didn’t seem to think it fictional. Current genetic analyses are shining very interesting lights on not only major groups of Jews (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Mizrahi), but also on smaller groups that were unknown or forgotten until recently, like the Jews of the tribe of Dan who peacefully settled among the Carthaginians, and still live (IIRC, near Tunis) where they settled 2500 years ago or so.

    There also are relics of the Jewish kingdom all over Israel. Perhaps a subscription to “Biblical Archaeology” is in order. Or even better, kind sir, you can go to Israel and see with your own eyes. Be sure to check out the Dead Sea Scrolls at the Israel Museum.

    Regarding the position of Jews in Medieval Muslim and Christian societies, in both cases there were periods of tolerance and welcome, and periods of hostility. The Jews of Poland were treated very well until the 20th Century. The Jews of Germany were also treated well. Many of the Italian city-states were also fairly tolerant of Jews. The Jews of France have been part of that country’s culture for a long, long time. The Jews of the Muslim countries generally had a somewhat better lot than those in the Christian world on average, but were also subject to dhimmi status – additional taxation, reduced rights, limited ability to practice our religion – much of the time. Neither religion can point to its treatment of Jews as a paradigm of tolerance and coexistance.

    Curiously, that’s not so in Israel, which you (laughably) allege is based on religious identity. You have, obviously, Jews free to practice Judaism, except we have limited rights when it comes to the Temple Mount, which is the holiest place in our religion. Yes, our most sacred site is controlled by Muslims. In Israel. Meanwhile, Muslims are free to practice and worship as they see fit. Christians are free to do as they like (at least the ones not under Hamas’s control). The Druze practice their own religion unfettered. The Bahai have the world headquarters of their religion in Israel, and are welcomed into the social and religious fabric of the country. It’s really strange behavior for a religion-based country, isn’t it.

    “I NEVER SAID THE AMERICANS ARE STUPID, and nobody ever is, i literally said they are ill-informed. ”

    I’ll let this statement stand on its own. It merits no further comment.

    “About wanting us to be free, am sorry to tell you but you absolutly have no right whatsoever to say that. If I were a LOW PERCON I WOULD HAVE propmtly TOLD YOU I CANT ACCEPT THOSE WHO ARE INFERROR TO ME AFFECT MY WILL.”

    I have no right to tell you that you should control your own destiny? Huh? Sorry, I simply cannot wrap my brain around that. I think that may be the influence of my “simple primitive religon” which insists that man is meant to be master of his destiny.

    Don’t like Jews in your country? Don’t chalk that up to MY “line of argument”. To requote myself, “Each country using democracy, will have a different government suiting local conditions. And there should be suitable protections for minorities to keep the majority from depriving them of their rights. Yep, that’s my ideology. You got me.”

    In case you missed it, I’ll repeat it. “suitable protections for minorities to keep the majority from depriving them of their rights”

    But yeah, if it’s good for the Jews to get kicked out “for their own protection”, then what could possibly be wrong about kicking out the Arabs from Israel “for their protection”. It’s not my belief, but it sounds like you need badly to move to Israel and start holding a candle for Meir Kahane.

    Oh, and here is a link to one of the many, many sources of information about genetic research into that “perished semi fictional nation”: http://www.cohen-levi.org/jewish_genes_and_genealogy/the_dna_chain_of_tradition.htm

    There are lots more. Go google them.

    bj

  39. El Lobo,

    Of course, you’re right. To Arabs, Jews have no claim to Jerusalem because we weren’t there for 1800 years (even though we were actually there continuously). But ask them what the status of Jerusalem will be in 1800 years if it is still under Israel’s control then. Why, occupied by Jews, of course. The argument seems to be “Any land that I am in now is mine, regardless of who used to be here. And any land that I used to be in, but that you are in now, is mine – get out!”

    Though I wish Amre no harm, it would be mighty amusing seeing him get tossed out of the country of which he occupies a small part, and finding out what he has to say about it then.

  40. Puniqe,

    I’m rereading Amre’s comments. It’s kind of like Jerry Springer – you want to look away, but somehow keep getting drawn back. His racism is breathtaking. It’s really remarkable. It’s like I’m reading some Social Darwinist Treatise on why so-and-so is inherently inferior, etc, etc.

    I wonder how prevalent those views are within the Arab world.

    Wow.

  41. To BrooklynJon,

    Thanks for agreeing with me. Do you think that Amre is starting to show the validity of those Arab/Moslem stereotypes some people complain so much about? I’m sure glad he’s a “moderate” Moslem.

    To Amre,

    I have got to say that, don’t you think that it was time that the Arab nations started taking responsibility for the Jewish refugees that were forced to leave their countries. Where could they go? Noone wanted them, so they had to go to Israel. If Arab Jews are in Israel today, who is to blame? The Arab states, including Egypt!

    Also, I think that you have one standard for Arabs and another one for Jews. You criticize Israel for being a Jewish state but are quite proud to declare Egypt to be an Arab state. That’s hypocrisy!

    And Amre, I don’t have to say: don’t stay in the Arab Republic of Egypt. You’ve already told youself that by moving to Scandinavia. What are you doing there anyway? You’ve got you’re own country to live in.

    As for this about being fed to dogs, aren’t you ashamed of your countrymen? They sound like barbarians. Do they feed to dogs everyone whose opinions they dislike?

  42. BrooklynJon,

    Yes, I too am finding Amre’s views fascinating. Lately I have not been too happy with Israel but Amre’s views have forced me to assess what they are up against.

    I think that you would find Amre’s views near universal in the Middle East, at least among the Moslem population. Arabs seem to be arabocentric if not egocentric. A good book to read in this regard is “The Arab Mind” by John Laffin. They seem to have difficult understanding other people’s points of view.

  43. El Lobo,

    “Lately I have not been too happy with Israel but Amre’s views have forced me to assess what they are up against.”

    I understand. Sometimes Israel can seem unnecessarily harsh. OTOH, it’s a rough neighborhood they live in.

  44. Jason,
    I find it interesting hearing – or reading – how someone else thinks, even if they think really differently than me. Correction- ESPECIALLY if they think really differently than me.

  45. El-lobo

    It is clear to me that you get mixed up quiet often, apparently, you dont comprehend the difference between culture, ethnicity and religon- am sure it is out of irony though!

    Jewish is religon arbic is ethnicity and culture. AND I DONT DECLARE EGYPT AN ARAB COUNTRY. it is the status quo that says so: Language, culture, history, DNA .It is official name is the Arab rewbublic of egypt and the egyptians are Arabs and they know it well.

    Seconfdly, i think it is quiet sensless and rude of you to try to patronise another country’s ethnicity. Only egyptians can talk about that. However, from your name i can tell that you are either a Spaniard or a latino. I hate generalising, but your apparent jealousy of Egypt’s identity most probably refelects one of complexes……. first ,either you are red indian latino, and feel bittered about the perished Incas and Astics , so you are jealous of the contnuity of the near eastern cultures. you cant compare the situation in Egypt, tunic ,morroco, iraq, syria, lebanon to latin America where an TOTALLY ALIEN RACE AND CULTURE DISPLACED AND EXTERMINATED AN ISOLATED INDIGENOUS ONE western people just can understand that the orient is different, you cant just automatically projet your experiences into our world…………, secondly, you can be a spaniard who feel bittered about the 800 years Arab colonisation of Spain, besides it is mostly Spaniards that know very well the virtues of the Arabs in TOLEDO AND CORDOBA, and how it was Arabic theology, philosophers, medicine and tolerant ideals that saved the west from its darkness…… oh I forgot to mention, you might as well be a star-war fan who has recently developed a passion for scifi and UFO movies. And you think that the red indians are related to the pharoahs who also might have been people from the Hashish galaxy!!!!!

    secondly, why are concerned about my stay here the Swedes are very welcoming to me, why am staying here is absolutly non of our business haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

    @Jon, Jason and el-lobbo

    Now since Jason and Jon decided to switch the argument into childish rants by talking about being harsh, tough neighbours, and separation walls. Then, unfortunatelly am forced to swich the argument into another issues

    as for those talking about walls Egyptian army was totally destroyed in 1967 and defeated . Still it kept on fighting galantlly against , air superiorty that stoned egypt that was more industralised than south koreaback to the stone age, beterr armmament and training, in a bitter war of attrition, that ended up in 1970 BY ISRAEL DEMANDING SIEZE FIRE BEACUSE OF THE RELETLESS EGYPTIAN ATTACK. in a matter of 3 years israel was facing an existantialistic threat beacuae of the egyptian attack to the extent that the idf threatened a nuclear blow to Egypt if they advance further………no need to go through details we all know. eventually you relaised that messing with arab pharaohs is serious business. you gave us back the rest of the land we didnt take by war for a piece of paer that means nothing!!!! after almost 30 years of the treaty the 99% of Egyptians consider israel to be the eternal enemy….. the opposition in egypt can only mass popular support when they ask for cancelling the treaty and going back to the state of war with isreal.
    So basically you occupied sianai in 1967 to give it back in 1979 , practically for nothing haaaaaaaaaaa No it is because you knew very well that messing with egyptians is very difficulT. iSRAEL never gives up a land unless forced to do so .That is a part israeli mentality
    Moreover if the ignorant stupid backward , big ass bellied gulf and saudi arabs corporated well with Egypt in the Arab industralisation organisation which had the potential to manufacture MIRRAGES, GAZEELEES AND HI TECH WEAPONRY SYSTEMS in addition to econimic aid to contiune the devolopment plans that were all directed to fighting hi-tec advanced enemy who is being treated like an american state in the middle east. we would have kept on fighting you uptill now . and never stop untill you get boared haaaaaaa

    The will of the 300 million Arabs is trascendental my dear because it is the will of a civilisation and people that invented writing, organisation, religon, consiense, agriculture, astronomy. the greeks who are the PRIDE OF THE WEST mentioned several times on the tongue of PLATO AND SOCRATESE that there is nothing we know in greece that hasnt been invented in BABYLON OR EHGYPT. People where in their lands christianty, islam have developed. people who laid down the ffoundations of modern experimental sciense, multi ethnic and religous tolerance, PHILOSOPHISING THEOLOGY, not Just Algebra but logarithims, Zero,claculus, chemistry, optics, modern sociology.

    Just look the palestinians an isolated , banished, poor , persecuted massacred very small nation are making the whole world in contant retlessness haaaaaaaa can you imaginge how would be ilike if all the Arabs got together?

  46. Amre,

    Yeah, whatever. I’m shaking in my shoes.

    But, just so you know, Jews are widely considered a nation with an associated religion. There are Jews who subscribe to rabbinical Judaism, Jews who sucscribe to Karaism, Jews who subscribe to Christianity, Jews who subscribe to Buddhism, and Jews who are atheistic. If Judaism were only a religion, this would not be possible.

    There are Jews of varied colors and shades, because Jews are not a race. Hence the absurdity of the Zionism=Racism trope.

    Whether you want to call Jews a single ethnicity or not involves splitting a lot of hairs that need not be split here. But the DNA evidence suggests that Jews who look different are genetically more similar to each other than they are to the surrounding, same-looking population.

    As for the rest of your Arab-superiority rant, I will roll my eyes and move on.

    Just stop breaking the pills in half, okay.

  47. Amre!

    It seems that you have a sense of humour, though I must admit that I am yet to fully apreciate it.

    I can’t see where I have erred. What you don’t seem to realize is that being Jewish involves more than just religion, it is also an ethnic identity. The word Jew comes from Judah, the name of the southern kingdom in Canaan, and Jews today are supposedly the descendents of that southern kingdom.

    No, no, I am not a Latino. El Lobo is just a pseudonym.

    Yes, certainly the Arabs have made contributions to human civilization but of course all that is in the past. I say, what have you done for us lately? Nothing! Also I think it is a mistake, if not highly arrogant, for Arabs to claim the achievements of the people they conquered as their own. The ancient Egyptians were not just another type of Arab, you know.

    Sorry, if it seems as though I’m prying by asking why you are in Sweden. I was only trying to point out what I thought was hypocrisy on your part, namely, you living in a foreign country whilst apparently defending the right of your racist countrymen in Egypt to expel Jews who had been there for centuries.

    [Note: You can tell me that it is none of my business why you are in Sweden, however this is the Internet, a FREE-ZONE. I will keep asking you if I like!]

    By the way, your understanding of Egyptian/Israeli history seems different from mine. I can’t understand why Israel would demand a cease-fire in 1970. At that stage Israel was in total control of the Sinai and Egypt would be a long way away from Israel. And why would Egypt give them one anyway? Also, although Egypt initially did quite well in the 1973 war, the Israelis recovered and, as far as I know the IDF was well on its way to Cairo, that is, until the Americans stopped them. Did you know that?

  48. El Lobo,

    The sense that I have is that most Egyptians think they won the Yom Kippur War. Wasn’t Sadat assassinated at a parade celebrating that victory? And isn’t there an “October 6, 1973 Square” or something in Cairo? As I understand it, it is a function of redefining “victory” until it becomes something you can achieve. Like HA redefined it to mean “survival”.

    In Egypt’s case, “victory” meant having the Israeli army an afternoon’s drive to Cairo with nothing but sand in the way, and requiring a humanitarian intervention to keep the Egyptian army from dying of thirst en masse in the Sinai. If that was victory, it’s a darn good thing they didn’t lose.

  49. BrooklynJon,

    Thanks for your explanation. I think that you are right. Once a Coptic taxi driver told me that “we”, the Egyptians, won the ’73 war. However other Copts, more educated no doubt, have told me that the Israeli army was deep inside Egypt and that the Egyptian government never told the people. It is quite possible that most Egyptians today still don’t know the truth. No wonder so many of them want to continue the war.

    One has to laugh at the Arabs’ braggadocchio though. With such unrealism on their part is it any wonder that they can’t get their act together.

  50. well, Jon and El-Lobo thank you very much for opening up the 6th of october and the war of atrition issue! it is a chance for me to correct the myths of of foreign media. BTW I never rely solely on Egyptian sources, instead i scan Israeli, American andrussian views´.

    About the war of attrition: it was basically artilly duels and Egyptian commandos raids in sinai that kills israeli soldiers and paratroops with knives in hand to hand fights, and marine raids against major israeli ports. The israeil retaliation was basically air raids against industrial and civilian targets! it went on for 3 years Egyptian casualties was big but israeli was higher p.s when normalised to population sieze which included destroying the biggest piece in israeli navy ILAT with small boat. Amove that has changed the global marine strategies, blowing up the port of ilat, killing 36 israeli officers with knives in one battle from the point that fired an artillary shot on GENERAL ABDEL Mone3im riyad the chief of staff of the Egyptian army who was fighting with ordinary soldiers in the fore front, the first case in modern military history. The Egyptian inferior meg 17 shot down 26 israeli mirrages and skyhunters in return for 100 migs given the difference in training resources between egypt and israel. and the tech specifications of the meg on one side, phantoms and mirages on the other. In 1970 Egyptian air defences started to shoot down phantoms for the first time. Egypt was exhausted fighting a war against an enemy who is militarly superior to it. Still the war was hitting at israel’s weak point prolonged war and human loses.

    check that: Former Commander of the IAF Ezer Weizman wrote, “It is no more than foolishness to claim that we won the War of Attrition. On the contrary, for all their casualties, it was the Egyptians who got the best of it…. We, with our own hands, smoothed Israel’s path to the Yom Kippur War.”

    In 1970 the us foreign minister proposed a temporary sieze fire plan at a request by israel (according to israeli resources). Nasser accepted the proposal , then breached it a few minutes later to mobilise the newly arrived SAM 6 to the canal- which ment total neutralisation of the superior israeli air force. So israel was duped haaaaaa, as it has always been the case by Egypt haaaaaaa

    About the 1973 am fully aware of the points Jon and El- Dorado talked about… However, i’m forced to say that although what he mentioned is factually correct except for the part about israelis on the road to Cairo, the context in which he is placing the events is very biased. That,s usually ho western media tend to demoralise and reconstruct the existance of the Arabs by taking advantage of the miserable state of Arab cultural and political life, to impose their own social constructs! Now am going to brief you on the following

    well, first i will start by a briefing of the war: first it is acknowledged by Israelians and Americans that the Egyptians duped both CIA AND MOSSAD that Egypt is incapable of war while Egyptian double agents reached hight posts in the kennisit. Moreover, the son of law of Nasser and the close chounsellar of Sadat Ashraf Marwan contacted israel and offered his services (open source information) just to relay to israel what Egypt wanter her to believe!

    the suez canal was covered buried with illeagal blister chemical bombs to burn down egyptian army while crossing, the barliev line was considred according to Americans stronger than magineau and sigfred, in the diaries of the MARSHAL of soviet union he claimed that egypt needs an atomic bomb to sweep over the canal and formidable israel fortifications…………..Egyptian Engineers destroyed it used water hoses haaaa imported from Germany for the fire department .

    Within 3 days Egyptian INFANTRY destroyers 500 israeli tanks and wiped out entire brigades and captured their commanders who were shown on EGYPTIAN TV AS AN ENTERTAINMENT FOR KIDS. According to BRITISH and American Military analysts THE Egyptians revolutionised modern warfare strategies by introducing the concept MAN AGAINST IRON the egyptian men destryed Israeli tanks with their own shoulder launched RPGS and and suicidal attacks against the tanks!!!! there it woul be interesting to mention that,one egyptian man called MOHAMED ABDEL AATTY destroyed 24 israeli tanks single handedly……..

    Major general saad el-shazly (who was accused later of great treason)the humílator of Sharoan, devised a perfect pLAN THAT WOULD stab ISRAEL AT ITS HEART. By focusing on the two israeli weak points human losses and prolonged warfare. Egyptians after humilating israelians and breaking the IDF on the first defensive line, would consolidate their positions , now the israelians havebecome intimadated and couldnt get near the egyptian so we keep on harrasing them untill they collapse.

    Golda meir cried in PUBLIC in press conference in the US and shouted save ISRAEL haaaaaaaaaaaa nothing was working with the Egyptians . However, after gallant battles from OUR SYRIAN brothers in the goalns they were pushed back beause of a petrified unrealistic leadership…………. despite, the opposition of el-shazly and commanders of second and third army . The Egyptians went out of their air defence umberella which extends only 20 kilometers east of the canal and avanced in deliberate attack in the open desert (an open landscape ) against total Israeli superiority in the air to relieve the pressure on syria.. The egyptian attack was soundly crushed by israel and egyptians went back to thei defences . AMERICANS PROVIDED PICTURES TO ISRAEL ABOUT THE POINT OF JUNCTION OF THE EGYPTIAN 3RD AND SECOND ARMIES . from there sharoan crossed to the west bank, after a famous battle called the “chinese farm” in which egyptian infantry faught to the last man in unprecendet resistance . ARIEL SHAROAN IN A recorded INTERVIEW WITH THE BBC in 1974 said that He though the Egyptians were not human in this battle as it was the first time in his life he sees people not afraid to die…………he also added that 9 egyptian infantry men would attACK AN ISRAELI TANK WITH GUERRANDES WHICH MENT THAT ONLY one would survives they still did it, SHAROAN later became the biggest advocate for piece with egypt haaaaaaaaaaa.

    Anyway the egyptians could have contained the israeli breech very quickly in the begining hadn’t been it sadat passion for cameras and fame, as he strted to interfere in professional military details he was also scared of SAAD EL-SHAZLY WAS BEING WORSHIPPED IN EGYPT as he opposed shazly paln to destroy the israelis on the west BANK.

    ON THE 20 THE OCTOBER Areil sharoan MARCHED TOWARDS ISMAILLIYA WITH AN ARMOURED DIVISION JUST TO BE STOPPED BY A LIGHTLY ARMED SPECIAL FORCES Egyptian BATTELION AND NEVER TRIED AGAIN ( WE WONT TALK ABOUT CAIRO HERE). On the 24th of October the Egyptian third army was cut of and besieged with isralies taking over the road head of road suez cairo- They entered suez on the 25th of october just to be KICKED OUT BY CIVILIANS AND AND 40 OR 50 infantry some of the israelians were jumping out of their tanks and running out of the town which they never thought about going ino it again…………SO dont talk about cairo for every kilomenter on the road to cairo was reinforced and entire egypt would have faught for it. AM SURE THAT THE ISRAELIANS ARE VERY INTELLIGENT PEOPLE THEREFORE THEY KNOW VERY WELL THAT MARCHING TOWARDS CAIRO COULD LEAD TO DESTRUCTION OF THE ENTIRE ISRAELI ARMY……..o maybe even the END OF ISRAEL…………..

    concerning the EGYPTIAN 3RD ARMY THE SITUATION WAS indeed precarious. Egypt had only one choice after she has reassessed the situation. WHICH WAS LAUNCHING OPERATION THE TYPHOONIC OPERATION (CALLED BY THE EGYPTIAN ARMY (SHAMIL OPERATION) WHICH MEANS DESTRYING THE ISRAELIANS WEST OF THE CANAL ESPACIALLY THAT THEIR ENTIRE FORCES WERE CONSTRICTED TO NARROW STRIP INSIDE THE DEPTH OF EGYPT ON THE WEST BANK, IN ADDITION TO THAT THE ENTRAAPED 3RD ARMY UNITS TURNED AROUND. the outcome of the operation would have been A TOTAL DESTRUCTION OF THE ISRAELIANS WEST OF THE CANAl in addition to severe damage to the Egyptian 3rd army . However, that would have ment total collapse of the israeli army in sianai and massivce casualties on account of Egyptians…………..That situation would put the world on verge of world war 3. Still, sadat the genius who double crossed the cia and the mossad had a very long vision. The war ended with Americans and Soviets intervention with keeping the statu quo. AS now he has achieved his goals of making the israelians realise the price of messing with their former ENSLAVERS. He was planning for long truce (camp david).

    Now back to MILITARY, ISRAEL AND EGYPT ON THE 25TH OF OCTOBER REACHED THE POINT WHERE NEITHER COULD GO ON ANY LONGER AND WERE LOSING MEN AND EQUIPMENT AT RATES THAT CANT BE SUBSTITUTED . Howwevr the israeli position was more precarious, given that they were very far from ther supply lines and deep inside the oven of very hostile territories.

    the proof of my point was the result of disengagment in december 1973 in which the isralians left the west bank and withdrew further 30 kilometers east of the canal. aND I THINK WE ALL KNOW THAT IT IS TAKEN FOR GRANTED THAT IN REAL WORLD ONE CANT TAKE IN NEGTIATIONS WHAT their GUNS CANT………….Moreover, in the second disengagment agreement by the end of 1974 isreal left the strategic straits . And it well known that who controls the straits controls sinai!!!!!! egypt open the suez canal and in ISRAEL THAT WAS SHOCK TO THE MASSES HAAAAAAAAAAAAA ask whoever was a grown up in israel during that time

    Eventually, my present for you is AN AMERICAN POINT VIEW in the form of a PHD thesis made by a west point American colonel about the 6th of october war…………….. just read it………i dont agree with it bcause it fails to fully capture the situation but i suggest that you read. For it concludes that the situation afte rthe war was a stalemate and a strategic victory for EGypt. Which i dont agree with it was actually a military victory for Egypt not just a strategic one

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1997/Jordan.htm

    As for you Jon, i just feel a bit sorry because am sure you are a very good natured, clean woamn who knows deep in her heart what is right and what is wrong…maybe that could explain the apparent bitter irony in your words. you sound to me hectic and restless …i dont know…. it would be silly and presumptious but i think you are suffereing from an internal conflict because you are basically a woman of consience that knows very well the fallacy of the claims of her people, yet because you are a loyal p and respectworthy percon you remain attached to your people and maybe that’s why you are disguising your liberalism behind that right winged conservative Jewish mask . I wish you were not an enemy because i seriously hate DEFEATING YOU

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1997/Jordan.htm

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1997/Jordan.htm

  51. Amre.

    Thanks for your account of the ’73 war. I found it to be most interesting.

    I now forward to reading what BrooklynJon has to say about some of your comments. Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

  52. Amre,

    First let me say that duplicitousness and bloodthirstiness may seem to you like positive characteristics, but to the Jewish mind they are not. Double-crossing, violating treaties and agreements, being indifferent to death – either on your own side or on the opposing side – are not characteristics that we would be proud of. I speak not just for myself, but for all the Jews I know, and I know a lot. Perhaps Arabs think these are good things, but that will have to be a cultural difference between us. Please bear that in mind when you try to interpret the motives of Jews. I often find my Arab friends and colleagues think they know what motivates others to do what they’re doing, when in fact, they’re just projecting their own thoughts onto others.

    Second, thank you for calling me a “good natured, clean woamn.” If I were a woman, I would certainly be highly offended by your condescending attitude (especially the “clean” bit), but as I am a man when I checked last, I’ll let it slip. I do think I’m good natured. Still, that’s really for others to decide.

    The War of Attrition left both countries thinking that they had won, and each had reason to think as they did. Ultimately, I believe it was a negative development for Israel because of two developments 1) improved Egyptian air defenses and 2) complacency. The Israelis came to place too much reliance on static defenses, and adopted a complacent posture leading into the Yom Kippur War.

    The massive demobilization of the Israeli Army immediately preceding the Yom Kippur Holiday allowed Egypt to press deep into Israeli held territory. There is no way to put a positive spin on that. Bad strategy. Or, more accurately, no strategy.

    The Israeli response was robust once they were finally able to marshall their armed forces, and particularly once they were able to get the US to rearm them, as the USSR had been rearming Egypt and Syria. Of note, the story I have heard (but cannot definitively veryify) was that the only way Golda Meir was able to pursuade Kissinger and Nixon to resupply the arms was to indicate that, failing that, Israel would have no choice but to deploy its nuclear arsenal. So, Amre, while your strutting about Egyptian superiority, please note that it is because of Nixon and Kissinger, and because of Israel’s restraint, that Cairo is not currently a sheet of radioactive glass.

    At the conclusion of the war, there was not much of anything between the Israeli cavalry and Cairo (and, for that matter, Damascus). Yes, yes, blah blah defenses, blah, blah, fighting to the last man, yada, yada, yada. With air superiority and a mess of tanks, the fact that Israel stayed put was an indication of Israel’s lack of interest in conquering Egypt. Why? Because Jews are simply not that way. Maybe Arabs are, but Jews aren’t.

    What did we learn from the whole escapade?

    1) Peace treaties are nice. Jews regard them as binding, lasting documents. Arabs tend to place less sanctity in them, viewing them at best as temporary cease-fires, or hudnas. You can read it right out of Amre’s words, but see it in the actions of the Arab countries.

    2) The Arab countries, given the opportunity, will seek to conquer Israel. The Jewish country, given the opportunity, will seek to live in peace.

    3) The Arabs suffer from such an inferiority complex that they can’t recognize when their success is based on a strategic blunder on the other side, and have a tendency to claim any positive result at all as a great strategic victory (like HA’s recent “victory” by not being completely destroyed).

    4) Any graceful act, like a withdrawal or humanitarian gesture, will be viewed only as an act of weakness, presumably because only weakness would motivate the Arabs to do the same.

    5) Wars that lead to cease-fires imposed from outside, as opposed to utter, humiliating defeat, rarely lead to peace.

    6) So long as people like Amre represent the majority view of the Arab nation, peace in the ME can only be achieved by complete capitulation to the Arabs’ demands.

    7) It’s a pity, really.

  53. Amre.

    No, I’m not an American Copt. Why?

    I must say, Amre that I find your delight in duplicitiouness and the breaking of treaties most unsettling. I find your attitude unmanly and without honour.

  54. BrooklynJon.

    You seem to know a lot about the ’73 war. I thought it was the Americans that actually stopped the Israeli army from proceeding to Cairo. Is there any truth to that?

  55. No problem, i thought you are woman because you sound hectic, nervous and compassionate in your writin which is a female attidude!

    Again you skip the technical points and resided to meanligness rhetoric about the peace loving , angleic jews and the evil Arabs who hate israel for no sound reason except maybe the eternal univesal struggle between good represented by the pink jews and evil represented by bloody Arabs……

    1)I think i told you that according to Israeli resources an Egyptian light armed special forces battelion defeated SHARON’s armoured divioson advancing towards ismailiya on the side of the second army.

    2)The troops besieging suez entered it on the 25th , just to leave it after a one day battle against some infantry men and civilians, their casualties was unacceptable . and was suffering like hell while besieging .

    3)According to many American resources the israeli force was stretched to its maximum and even the the American air lift was incapable of making up for Israeli losses, leaving alone, the the invaluable israeli resources.

    4) a republican guards highly trained armoured brigade was stationed in cairo

    5) 2 armoured brigades were manouvering around the israeli bridgehead just harrasing it without direct engagment.

    6) the second army in was fully intact and operating in sinai with great effciency

    i7)n points 1 we saw how a special forces battelion stopped sharon’s armoured division, there two other brigades of those forces free moving in the area. So imagine if it was cairo not ismaelia , leaving alone the armoured brigades whose mission was to outline the israelis untill reinforcements arrive and a detailed action plan is set.

    8)in point 2 we saw that in suez city which has a very low population density, merely cairenes working in some factories over there, no stationed troops except some 40 or 50 infantry men, defeated an invading force of an armoured brigade and a para troopers battelion and forced them to withdraw in panic after fierce fighting.

    9)I think i needn’t comment on how it would have been like if t israelis marshed towards cairo the most populated middle eastern city, leaving alone the one million half trained police and civil defence forces and the sophisticated air defence batteries stationed around cairo which deprives israeli forces of air support in cairo.

    10)Furthermore, the situation on the long run was trap for israel which was over stretched very far away from supply lines and inside a deadly enemy territory.

    The Egyptian plan was to withdraw two armoured brigades from the second army which in addition to the cairo republican guards brigade, the special forces units, the two armoured brigades already on the west bank would sqeeze the israeli bridghead and destroy it and shooting egyptians in the way including some of the 3rd army units. However the prize would have a full destruction of the active Israeli forces on the Egyptian front.

    11)the super power interventions merely preserved the status quo ! and prevented either side from resorting to crazy adventuress that might endanger world peace…….

    12)Finally, it seems to forget that approaching cairo simply means the Egyptian SAMPSON option Egypt is armoured to the tooth with chemical and biological weapons ( open source information) and just prior to the war Egypt supplied Syria with chemical weapons, given that almost the entire poulation off israel is constricted in a small strip so missile chemicale and biologile blow Accompanied by a conventional blow to the to DYMONA REACTOR AND THE iSRAELI NNUCLEAR INSTALLMENTS WILL turn iSRAEL INTO FLAT DUSTY landscaspe that can be used by future generations as a museum that reminds the future Arab generations of the cruelty of man-kind………….

    13)However before i go it seems that you have only managed to fulfill al the old western anti-semitic stereotypes of the hypocrytical, Shylock and Urea heap, showing humility and love while hiding nothing but maliciois intentions.

    For you have been blabbing about the virtious jewish mind who loves fish, whales and candies, however you couldnt go on for long, your true self betrayed you when you started talking about shattering cairo with Nuclear bombs…………

    Let me guess, you must be working with children beacuse seemingly you had assumed before writing your last comment that the readers would be pupils from KG 4. I have guessed so for many reasons, among others, the fact the war is cruel and brutal reality in which men get killed, blood is spilled , economies are ruined, nations and regimes rise and fall. And there has never been anything in history so called a fair war. Dont talk about Israelis being angel like crtatures making concessions and sparing lives of their enemies because of their inhrent goodness and virture………………..

    oh concerning the Arab mind it can never be captiualted, many others have tried,but, it just never worked.

    Frankly speaking to resolve this conflict once and for all, i suggest that for the sake of nice israeli citezens that they start negotiating buying alska from the States……………….

  56. Amre,

    Jews do not consider it an insult to be a woman. No offense is taken. There’s only a need to apologize if you say something defamatory. Being a woman is defamatory only in a misogynistic world view, which we don’t have. I can’t speak for you, but I suppose you have spoken for yourself.

    As for the specifics of your rant, I won’t bother to engage, as it would turn commenting into a full time job. But I’ll just say that my cousin was in the Israeli infantry, fighting by the Chinese Farm. It was a great Egyptian victory. Of course, it was also a feint intended to draw the Egyptian armor, enabling the Israeli army to encircle it.

    And I mention the Nuclear option because Israel was ready to use it, but only as a last option before being defeated, as they imagined that defeat by the Egyptians would equal genocide. Of course, nothing that you have said has convinced me that that was an incorrect assumption.

    I am glad that it was unnecessary to use WMD. I hope that continues to be true in the future. If the Arabs give up on hating, maybe the nations can even live in peace and harmony.

    El Lobo,

    Yes, the UN, which failed to meet for several consecutive days when it looked like Israel would lose, suddenly found time to meet in emergency session once the tide of the war reversed, and called for a cease-fire. The USA intervened in a) getting the Israelis to honor the UN call for a cease-fire b) shipping arms to Israel to offset the Soviet arms shipments to Egypt and Syria and 3) going to DEFCOM 3, matching the USSR’s activation of nuclear installations to keep the Russians from nuking Israel.

    As far as Egypt was concerned, the USA kept them from being nuked by assuring Israel that it would be supplied with conventional weapons.

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